Green drink

[leFleur]

I need to know if I am on the right track to bring my blood sugar levels down. I hate to make such a long post, but I am wondering why my BG levels are still running so high, or how long until I might see some results.

I just had my first green drink, home-made, juiced:

1/2 apple
1 5" cuke
1.5 stalks celery
1 roma tomato
1 handful of fresh spinach
1 lemon
cilantro
dash of salt

I am a T2 diabetic, insulin 20 units at each meal. I had a clammy rush like i had eaten pasta on an empty stomach. I have been on 30 gram LC per day for one week. My bg levels are still running 320 before breakfast to 210 by the end of the day.

Is the clammy feeling caused by the juicing acting like a carb dump? I am treating the juice like it is my dinner salad. Having slices of lean pork for with it for supper.

Will have a small handful of raw almonds later at bed time with Levemir insulin.

I eat scrambled eggs with salsa for breakfast. There are 2 grams of carb in the salsa.

For lunch I have a handful of raw almonds and left over meat from the night before.

Many thanks for any suggestions you can provide.

[isisrose]

Hi leFluer and welcome to PP. I too am diabetic (though thanks to PP have much improved and I believe it will soon be latent) and new to PP.

My first thought is that the apple should probably go, at least for now, if not for good. Sorry but quite a bit of fructose there. You should probably avoid fruit for some time to come because of the fructose. When things are much better maybe try some berries, in a small amount like say 1/4 cup. See how you react and be willing to give them up if you don't react so well.

My second thought is why juice??? Eat the veggies whole instead. Have that salad instead. Juice tends to get rid of the fiber and leave you with the sugars. Not what you want.

My third thought is did you measure that salsa? It is 2 grams for the serving, did you stop at the serving size (I'm guessing 2 Tbs.)? Or did you have more?

My fourth thought is how much is a handful of almonds? I just grabbed a handful and weighed them and it was 5 oz. How much is your handful? You should weigh out an ounce of almonds. For an experiment I weighed out several ounce batches and got between 18 - 20 almonds each. So personally, if for some reason I couldn't weigh or buy an ounce bag I would count of 18 (the low number) and call it an ounce (at worse I cheated myself of a carb).

My fifth thought is that your veggies are low. The bulk of your up to 30 ECC should come from veggies so that would be at least 20 ECC if not more like up to 25.

My sixth thought (ok I'm having a lot of thoughts) is perhaps with you BS so high maybe you should reduce your ECC for a bit (but monitor your BS and work closely with Doc re: meds/insulin amounts) for a while say maybe up to 25 a day.

My seventh thought is maybe you should eat more often, instead of 3 - 4 times a day maybe 5 - 6 in smaller portions to keep BS stable. Include protein, fats and veggies and you should be good.

If you are starting with that high of a BS and ending with that low (comparatively to where you started) you are not stabelizing your BS. That should be a goal, not just lowering it but keeping it within a range.

Just MHO.

[mcsblues]

Welcome aboard leFleur.

My first thought is that if you are an insulin dependant type 2 and want to control your blood sugars better with low carb (good choice) you should be working very closely with your doctor, at least until you have things on a more stable, managable basis. As I'm sure you know, high doses of insulin combined with a major change in diet could result in dangerous hypos - so please, we will be happy to help, but your doctor must be involved.

If you haven't already done so, it would be a great idea to get hold of Richard Bernstein's book - http://diabetes-book.com/ (and read everything on his site) - this will also help you understand the changes you are making, and any refinements necessary.

[leFleur]

TY Rose and Mal for your replies. That is very good advice. I will make an appt. with my doctor tomorrow.

LOL Rose - I measured my salsa...

[isisrose]

LOL Rose - I measured my salsa...

But did you measure your nuts? Oh that can so be taken the wrong way. :evil:

[Roadstr]

You are on the right track. Here's why... Vegetables cellular walls are normally broken down mechanically by chewing. Put them in a blender and liquifying insures the nutrients will be readily absorbed after drinking.
The reason why the Lemonade Diet or Master Cleanse Diet works so well is because it increases alkalinity. Some will argue the very narrow window of buffering in the blood, but the effect of eating foods that cause a decrease in acid will cause a decrease in fat.
Vegetables are very alkalizing to the body as well as lemon juice. The drink that my wife and I have been drinking is the following after I heard about it on Good Morning America... going by memory here and I usually am generous with the celantro and parsley...organic is best if you can...
4 stalks of celery
1/3 bunch cilantro
1/3 bunch parsley
1/2 head romaine lettuce
juice of 1 lemon
The following you can vary to suit your needs... I disagree with Dr. Eades on the effect of carbohydrates in the AM. I believe there is less effect in the AM and all the body builders I know decrease their carbs later in the day.
1 apple
1 pear
1 banana
The other part of this regimin to alkalize the body is drinking 2 glasses of fresh squeezed lemon in 8 ounces of water mid morning and afternoon. You will loose weight doing this and eating anything else you want within reason.
Here is my current plan...
Morning is the green drink a a couple of cups of coffee.
A few eggs and whole grain toast.
Lemon drink at mid morning.
3-5 oz of meat, chicken or fish on whole wheat.
Lemon drink mid afternoon
5-8 oz os protein and a big salad.
The whole point of this is fat surrounds the organs to protect them, eating foods that are alkalizing to the body will decrease the protective fat.

[mcsblues]

You are on the right track. Here's why... Vegetables cellular walls are normally broken down mechanically by chewing. Put them in a blender and liquifying insures the nutrients will be readily absorbed after drinking.
The reason why the Lemonade Diet or Master Cleanse Diet works so well is because it increases alkalinity. Some will argue the very narrow window of buffering in the blood, but the effect of eating foods that cause a decrease in acid will cause a decrease in fat.
Vegetables are very alkalizing to the body as well as lemon juice. The drink that my wife and I have been drinking is the following after I heard about it on Good Morning America... going by memory here and I usually am generous with the celantro and parsley...organic is best if you can...
4 stalks of celery
1/3 bunch cilantro
1/3 bunch parsley
1/2 head romaine lettuce
juice of 1 lemon
The following you can vary to suit your needs... I disagree with Dr. Eades on the effect of carbohydrates in the AM. I believe there is less effect in the AM and all the body builders I know decrease their carbs later in the day.
1 apple
1 pear
1 banana
The other part of this regimin to alkalize the body is drinking 2 glasses of fresh squeezed lemon in 8 ounces of water mid morning and afternoon. You will loose weight doing this and eating anything else you want within reason.
Here is my current plan...
Morning is the green drink a a couple of cups of coffee.
A few eggs and whole grain toast.
Lemon drink at mid morning.
3-5 oz of meat, chicken or fish on whole wheat.
Lemon drink mid afternoon
5-8 oz os protein and a big salad.
The whole point of this is fat surrounds the organs to protect them, eating foods that are alkalizing to the body will decrease the protective fat.

Yes, in your rush to disagree with Mike, you may have neglected to read the OP. This is an insulin dependant type 2 diabetic asking for advice. The very last thing she needs is a banana/apple/pear juice concoction regardless of your guess that it would be "very alkalizing".

How is it going leFleur? Have you seen your doctor yet?

[isisrose]

Yes, in your rush to disagree with Mike, you may have neglected to read the OP. This is an insulin dependant type 2 diabetic asking for advice. The very last thing she needs is a banana/apple/pear juice concoction regardless of your guess that it would be "very alkalizing".


As a recovering type II diabetic (almost latent), though not on insulin or drugs I couldn't agree with you more. I don't care how early in the morning it was that would send my BS through the roof, undo all my work and there would be a metabolic Mad Hatters Tea party going on in me.

As a diabetic I have this to say: bananas, apples and pears oh my! Bananas, apples and pears oh my :eek:

[gitfiddle]

Malcolm and Rose, I agree with you both. I'm diabetic and on no meds at this time. I only eat apple when my husband cuts one up for himself and shares a couple of slices with me.

The PP way of eating is the only way I can stay off meds. I recommend it just as it comes out of the book, especially to start with. I rarely feel deprived. :)

[Belfrybat]

Unless he's changed his advice, Dr. Mike used to suggest eating more carb in the morning than later in the day. Dr. Bernstein recommends the opposite. I've found I can tolerate a bit more in the morning, but if my bgs. are to remain level, then carbs need to be distributed pretty evenly except for eating a few carbs before bed (usually a half apple). I've also found my bgs. stabilize better with more carbs than 30 a day. 50 seems to be the optimal number for me as long as they do not come from grains. When I'm behaving myself I eat 15-15-10 with a small carb snack before bed (no more than 8-10 ECC). That regime allows me to minimize insulin intake -- usually 10 u. Lantus at bedtime and 2 u. Regular upon rising (hello, dawn phenomena!).

There is a weath of material at the Bernstein site and a very good forum full of knowlegeable people with all kinds/ degrees of diabetes. I find I need both this forum and the one on the Bernstein site to help me fight this diabeastie.

[Roadstr]

Yes, in your rush to disagree with Mike, you may have neglected to read the OP. This is an insulin dependant type 2 diabetic asking for advice. The very last thing she needs is a banana/apple/pear juice concoction regardless of your guess that it would be "very alkalizing".

How is it going leFleur? Have you seen your doctor yet?

In your rush you must have neglected to read this part of my post...
"The following you can vary to suit your needs... I disagree with Dr. Eades on the effect of carbohydrates in the AM. I believe there is less effect in the AM and all the body builders I know decrease their carbs later in the day.
1 apple
1 pear
1 banana"

I would think that a type 2 diabetic asking for advice would know the effects of fruit on blood sugar levels and would adjust diet. Just my thoughts. I don't disagree with Dr. Mike and since I can't locate the quote that I recalled when I "rushed to disagree" I will retract that statement and change my thinking to the opinion that Dr. Mike doesn't have any comment on the effects of carbohydrates at any one meal during the day; since I know the PP diet says not to go over 10 g carbs in any one meal or 40 g in a day. I would think anyone posting here on this subject would be aware of this... hmm, I retract that statement too.:lol:
Also, I was not in a rush to disagree, it's just something I have read in his blog and brought it up because I take this drink in the morning and that is my advice. Why do I think this? It's because I believe in a fasting state (i.e. morning after sleeping without eating for the last 10 hours) your body will absorb the nutrients faster and therefore a smaller amount of insulin is needed to open your cells to take in the glucose. You can think of this in a Macro way as well... If you limit your carbs for a longer period of time your cells will be more sensitive to the effects of insulin (not sure if this will apply to everyone, maybe health dependent). Morning breakfast is after you have limited your carbs (and everything else) after sleeping... that's the Micro version of the above. You can vary the green drink to meet the 10 g requirement, but I don't because I am not T2D and and I'm on PP maintenance. One that is T2D could add fruit to the green drink to adjust to taste or nutritional needs as gitfiddle suggested.
Which brings me to mcsblues comment; I believe you have a misunderstanding of my post regarding "Very Alkalizing", with all due respect to you when you said, "The very last thing she needs is a banana/apple/pear juice concoction regardless of your guess that it would be "very alkalizing"." mcs... that sounds kind of condescending... Anyway I never said apples, pears and banana's are the alkalizing part of the drink, they are not, the vegetables are. Another reason you should study what you are putting in your mouth for other reasons, other than controlling insulin. Like I said with all due respect mcsblues. I have learned from you over the years from the previous forum, but your not being very nice. :p
Here is a link (http://kimberlysnyder.net/2009/07/11/green-smoothie-recipe/) to Kimberly Snyder's Green Drink recipe. Here is a link (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/Story?id=8052138&page=3) to ABC's site on what Kimberly suggested to eat.
I point this out because I take in the juice of 2 lemons a day because that is what is so alkalizing, although Kimberly doesn't suggest this you can read about it if you google Master Cleanse... I"M IN BIG TROUBLE NOW!:eek:
Best of health! :cool:

[Karole]

The PP way of eating is the only way I can stay off meds. I recommend it just as it comes out of the book, especially to start with. I rarely feel deprived. :)

That's the bottom line Carol- "I recommend it just as it comes out of the book....

I sometimes wonder just which way of eating and living folks are trying to use around here.

[mcsblues]

In your rush you must have neglected to read this part of my post...
"The following you can vary to suit your needs... I disagree with Dr. Eades on the effect of carbohydrates in the AM. I believe there is less effect in the AM and all the body builders I know decrease their carbs later in the day.
1 apple
1 pear
1 banana"

I would think that a type 2 diabetic asking for advice would know the effects of fruit on blood sugar levels and would adjust diet. Just my thoughts. I don't disagree with Dr. Mike and since I can't locate the quote that I recalled when I "rushed to disagree" I will retract that statement and change my thinking to the opinion that Dr. Mike doesn't have any comment on the effects of carbohydrates at any one meal during the day; since I know the PP diet says not to go over 10 g carbs in any one meal or 40 g in a day. I would think anyone posting here on this subject would be aware of this... hmm, I retract that statement too.:lol:
Also, I was not in a rush to disagree, it's just something I have read in his blog and brought it up because I take this drink in the morning and that is my advice. Why do I think this? It's because I believe in a fasting state (i.e. morning after sleeping without eating for the last 10 hours) your body will absorb the nutrients faster and therefore a smaller amount of insulin is needed to open your cells to take in the glucose. You can think of this in a Macro way as well... If you limit your carbs for a longer period of time your cells will be more sensitive to the effects of insulin (not sure if this will apply to everyone, maybe health dependent). Morning breakfast is after you have limited your carbs (and everything else) after sleeping... that's the Micro version of the above. You can vary the green drink to meet the 10 g requirement, but I don't because I am not T2D and and I'm on PP maintenance. One that is T2D could add fruit to the green drink to adjust to taste or nutritional needs as gitfiddle suggested.
Which brings me to mcsblues comment; I believe you have a misunderstanding of my post regarding "Very Alkalizing", with all due respect to you when you said, "The very last thing she needs is a banana/apple/pear juice concoction regardless of your guess that it would be "very alkalizing"." mcs... that sounds kind of condescending... Anyway I never said apples, pears and banana's are the alkalizing part of the drink, they are not, the vegetables are. Another reason you should study what you are putting in your mouth for other reasons, other than controlling insulin. Like I said with all due respect mcsblues. I have learned from you over the years from the previous forum, but your not being very nice. :p
Here is a link (http://kimberlysnyder.net/2009/07/11/green-smoothie-recipe/) to Kimberly Snyder's Green Drink recipe. Here is a link (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Weekend/Story?id=8052138&page=3) to ABC's site on what Kimberly suggested to eat.
I point this out because I take in the juice of 2 lemons a day because that is what is so alkalizing, although Kimberly doesn't suggest this you can read about it if you google Master Cleanse... I"M IN BIG TROUBLE NOW!:eek:
Best of health! :cool:
You seem to believe quite a few things ... apparently without any evidence to support them, but I take your point - you suggested the OP was "on the right track" because she was doing something like you do, but that she should "vary" this to suit her needs ... in other words, not do what you do. I'm sure she will see that.

You say your advice is based on the work of someone called Kimberley - who appears from her cv to be a self taught beautician ... I hope something hasn't got lost in translation and you are drinking the face mask! She appears to be a disciple of the glycemic index - if you have been around the PP forums for a while you will already know what a crock this is - especially for diabetics. She says the only variation required to make your recipe diabetic friendly is to leave out the "high glycemic" banana ... which is what you said ... right? She also recommends agave nectar as a sweetener ... you do know how they make lab animals insulin resistant don't you? Her studies of ethnic beauty secrets have also apparently endowed her with expertise in the areas of "detox" and "alkalizing" as well as chemistry (if you dry sea salt the wrong way, the magnesium and other minerals "evaporate" ... who knew?)

Can I offer a friendly, helpful suggestion?

Get a blood sugar meter and see what happens to your blood sugar after a high carb breakfast (and imagine how much worse it would be if you were an insulin dependant diabetic).

Find a lab that will test the parts of your body that Kimberly tells you are being "alkalized".

See if there is a test that will show just how 'detoxed' you are after following her advice.

When you've done that report back. I'm sure Kimberly would be intrigued by this evidence thing too.

[maxlharris]

You are on the right track.
No.

You control Blood sugars by controlling your dietary carbs and proteins. Ingesting carby fruit, like apples, in a faster format, like juice, is kind of the exact opposite of what you want to do.

The reason why the Lemonade Diet or Master Cleanse Diet works so well is because it increases alkalinity.

This statement is pretty debatable. The lemonade diet (which I did, and hated, and would never try again) is essentially a juice fast. You will drop pounds very quickly, largely because you are consuming very low calories. Which is a crap idea for anything longer than a day or two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_cleanse
"...(t)here is no empirical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical) peer-reviewed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-reviewed) evidence that it achieves anything other than weight loss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_loss)."

Vegetables are very alkalizing to the body as well as lemon juice. The drink that my wife and I have been drinking is the following after I heard about it on Good Morning America... going by memory here and I usually am generous with the celantro and parsley...organic is best if you can...
http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/coral2.html
"You should not believe that it matters whether foods are acidic or alkaline, because no foods change the acidity of anything in your body except your urine. Your stomach is so acidic that no food can change its acidity. Citrus fruits, vinegar, and vitamins such as ascorbic acid or folic acid do not change the acidity of your stomach or your bloodstream. An entire bottle of calcium pills or antacids would not change the acidity of your stomach for more than a few minutes."
"All foods that leave your stomach are acidic. Then they enter your intestines where secretions from your pancreas neutralize the stomach acids. So no matter what you eat, the food in stomach is acidic and the food in the intestines is alkaline."

I disagree with Dr. Eades on the effect of carbohydrates in the AM. I believe there is less effect in the AM and all the body builders I know decrease their carbs later in the day.
T2 diabetics and bodybuilders are not the same thing. They are almost not the same species. I mean, c'mon. What works for someone with a high volume of muscle is not necessarily what will work (or what will be tolerated) by a diabetic. *incredulous*

Sometimes, Roadstr, I wonder why you even frequent this forum. You are kind of grafting whatever alternamedicine solution you can find on to a protein power base, sort of. The whole cholesterol thing.

I am not sure how you can disagree with the Drs. Eades, since it is reasonably clear that you are not more than cursorily familiar with their work.

[maxlharris]

I would like to edit the above to read as follows:

1- This green drink is not the right track. It is high in fast digested carbs and will spike blood sugar, which is exactly what a diabetic should NOT be doing, unless they really enjoy diabetes and are looking to shave ten years off their lives by staying diabetic.

2- The reason the Lemonade Diet works (assuming we are talking about crash weight loss, which is the only real application for this approach) is because people consume <500 calories a day on this nonsense, and round out their awful lemonade (the recipe is water, lemon juice, type B maple syrup and a pinch of cayenne pepper, and I speak from experience, it is f-ing awful), with a diuretic tea and digestive system abusing salt water. There is no evidence of any health benefit beyond the fasting element, and there are good reasons why people should not do this regime at all, much less long term.

3- The Master Cleanse has nothing to do with green drinks.

4- Roadstr's concoction is more of a green drink with lemon to cut the gag factor of drinking liquidized cilantro (which tastes like soap to 50% of people... really) and other greens. You take out the fiber by having a machine pre chew this stuff for you. You also reduce the catabolic effect of the heavy chew veggies by liquifying them.

5- There is abundant quackery around the Alkaline Balance theory of unwellness. So much so that if there is any merit to it, it is lost among the dross. I like my solutions to be more content heavy and less dross heavy. More wheat, less chaff. Alkaline Balance is chaff. 95% or more.

6- Roadstr's grasp of what the Eades have to say on anything in particular is to be taken with a grain of salt. Or thirty. Or perhaps a squeeze of lemon for palatability. The numerous corrections around his postings on basic mechanisms of the ketogenic diet, the protein power life style demonstrate a lack of grasp on the material. Likewise, Roadstr's not infrequent ventures into alternamedicine solutions should be cautionary to anyone who has access to the search function on here. Much ironic amusement can be had by using the search function on Roadstr and cholesterol.

7- As I said above, Bodybuilders and Diabetics are not the same. They are not to be compared. And what doesn't kill a bodybuilder may very well kill a diabetic.

I have used my entire canister of sea salt on reading this thread. I should hope that the OP, and anyone in the same situation, can see through this as clearly as I have.

[mcsblues]

Minor point Max, but blending (or having a machine "pre chew") a 'green smoothie' won't have any effect on the fibre content, but it will as you say increase the initial glycemic impact - something I forgot to mention in the context of Kimberly's love affair with the GI ... but then again, she is clearly a busy girl ... details are for other people to worry about ... right? ;)

[isisrose]

And I agree with that, but not banana, apple and pear juice. That's a lot of sugar for a diabetic even in the morning. For me when I eat a small amount of berries it is once a week and in the am with some fat and protein and it seemed to work well.

[maxlharris]

Minor point Max, but blending (or having a machine "pre chew") a 'green smoothie' won't have any effect on the fibre content, but it will as you say increase the initial glycemic impact - something I forgot to mention in the context of Kimberly's love affair with the GI ... but then again, she is clearly a busy girl ... details are for other people to worry about ... right? ;)

Pardon. Got my juicing and my blending to liquid confused. But the key thing isn't the fiber, since we know the health benefits of that are generally overstated and are dubious. It is the speeding of the digestible carb into more easily digested chunks that would be worrisome to a diabetic, particularly considering the prevalence of dawn phenomena.

I like Roadstr as a poster, but I would be very careful with any advice he is giving.

[mcsblues]

There is one class of 'machine' you can get to pre chew/digest your green stuff and dispense with the fibre and the glycemic issues in one hit.







They are called "cattle" ...




... or "sheep" ...




... pigs ...




... bison ...

[maxlharris]

I'm a big fan of those machines. ;-)

[Ammy]

MMmmmmm Bison...


Wait, what are we talking about??



:confused: :razz: