Ok, so.... calories do count?

[nova202]

I would love to hear from those that have been able to shed the last few pounds and expose those beautiful abs, and how they did it.

[maxlharris]

At that point, calories do count.
You're talking a sub-10% body fat for exposed abs.
Ad-lib low carb will get you in the neighborhood, but, barring exceptional genetics, at some point, you are going to have to watch quantities and develop the muscles beneath as well.

[nova202]

Do I stay on the same PP diet...just smaller portions?

[maxlharris]

You continue to keep carbs low. You continue to keep adequate protein for your activities. You keep closer to your protein requirement and you might cut dietary fat to burn the last pockets of adipose tissue.

How close are you? What is your body fat %age? If you're not close, you can probably do more with the diet, straight up. Talking the last 10-20 lbs.

[Dutchess2009]

You continue to keep carbs low. You continue to keep adequate protein for your activities. You keep closer to your protein requirement and you might cut dietary fat to burn the last pockets of adipose tissue.


I am curious about this too.....I only have 10-15 lbs to go. Should I also follow this advise? I have started to really watch my calories and fat intake, but sometimes I get nervous since I hear conflicting suggestions on lowering the fat intake to a minimum.

[nova202]

Im a 50 yr old male. Im 6' tall and weigh 210 lbs. I work out at least 4 times a week. I do uphill wind sprits and weights. My fat percentage is about 25%. If I lose 15 lbs I will look thin. I supose I could try to get all the way to 185lbs. That would be getting close to having abs. That would mean I still could lose 25lbs. That said...It sounds like I need to go to the minimum portions of protein/fats and minimum carbs.

[laughingW]

Dutchess, what is your bone structure? You are shooting for a pretty low BMI. Hey and did you know there was a survey of college men who say BMI of 21 is perfect I think - or was it 22 or 23.

How would you feel about switching to inches instead?

From watching people it appears to be more fun and safer for women to go for a small waist and not worry about the pounds instead of trying to get lighter and then you lose muscle and it all gets terrible.

Of course no one asked me because I am not there yet but that is what I would do. Specially since genetically all the women in my family are like gold - precious, small, and heavy for their size.

[Dutchess2009]

Dutchess, what is your bone structure? You are shooting for a pretty low BMI. Hey and did you know there was a survey of college men who say BMI of 21 is perfect I think - or was it 22 or 23.

How would you feel about switching to inches instead?


I think I have an average to small bone structure. When I hit my lowest goal last year @ 115 lbs I still had some fat I wanted to get rid of...mainly in my waist and bust area (which is always the last place for me to loose). My weight and inches (I judge by my clothes) pretty much go hand in hand. When I was 115 lbs I was actually in a size 2 pant...BUT I still had weight to loose. The reason for the small size is because I have barely any hips or bottom. I was thinner, but still had a bit of weight..well fat...I needed to lose.

[maxlharris]

Im a 50 yr old male. Im 6' tall and weigh 210 lbs. I work out at least 4 times a week. I do uphill wind sprits and weights. My fat percentage is about 25%. If I lose 15 lbs I will look thin. I supose I could try to get all the way to 185lbs. That would be getting close to having abs. That would mean I still could lose 25lbs. That said...It sounds like I need to go to the minimum portions of protein/fats and minimum carbs.

I am going to call foul here. I suspect you are doing a rough estimate on body fat or using a Tanita scale or similar electronic induction device, likely in the morning.

I am going to recommend doing the waist-wrist calculation in the original Protein Power.
If you don't have the original Protein Power, here is a link:
http://www.maspla.com/MALEConversionTABLES.pdf

If you are curious, here is why I am calling foul on your 25% number.
First, how I calculate out:
I have a lean body mass of ~175 lbs. I currently weight 213 lbs. 213-175 = 38 lbs of fat. 38/213 = ~18% body fat. At 6'1.75", that works out to be roughly where I am. Reasonably dense for my height (I am not largely muscled).

You are citing 210 lbs at 25% bodyfat. 25% of 210 is 52-53 lbs.
You say that getting down to 195 will make you look thin.
Looking at my handy-dandy waist-wrist chart, I'd see you'd work out as a 33 inch difference between your waist and your wrist... figure an average sized wrist of 8" and you are 6'0" with a 41 inch waist. 15 lbs would probably take you down to a 38, which would make you incredibly muscular to be too thin at 38. Really, no man is "too thin" at a 38" waist. I suppose we could give you a thin wrist of 6", which takes your current waist down to 39 and too slim at 36". More plausible, but still far fetched.

But deeper, at that LBM, <160, a 15 lb drop of fat, reduces you to 35 lbs of fat, which rocks to 18%. Where I am now. Not close to too slim.

Ultimately, it just doesn't add properly.

Really, you need to tweak when it stops working. If you are stalled out, THEN tweak. No tweak while you are still losing.

[laughingW]

I think I have an average to small bone structure. When I hit my lowest goal last year @ 115 lbs I still had some fat I wanted to get rid of...mainly in my waist and bust area (which is always the last place for me to loose). My weight and inches (I judge by my clothes) pretty much go hand in hand. When I was 115 lbs I was actually in a size 2 pant...BUT I still had weight to loose. The reason for the small size is because I have barely any hips or bottom. I was thinner, but still had a bit of weight..well fat...I needed to lose.

Yes, I see what you mean, and I think I understand your body type. One of my fitness classmates is just like that too.

In your situation I guess I would focus on:

- keeping up the strength training. LBM is what burns a lot of fat afterward and all day long.

- Yes, watch out for extra fat. A little goes such a long way - a small person's LBM and all that.

- Not letting other people spook you. Doing LC as a small woman trying to lose fat, the portions can get pretty darn small, and still be healthy and appropriate - for a small woman. For other people it freaks em out. Dr. Mike and Mark Sissons, both 6-footers, report they have lower calorie counts doing low carb than the equations suggest - so you can imagine how it can be for a small woman.

[nova202]

Hey Max, I use a scale that includes body fat persentage. Seems to be close. I'm new so please be nice. I have a 7 1/4 inch wrist and the fatest part of my belly varies a little, 39 inches to 40 inches at the belly button and love handles. What does that work out to... the way you calculate?

[Dutchess2009]

- Not letting other people spook you. Doing LC as a small woman trying to lose fat, the portions can get pretty darn small, and still be healthy and appropriate - for a small woman. For other people it freaks em out. Dr. Mike and Mark Sissons, both 6-footers, report they have lower calorie counts doing low carb than the equations suggest - so you can imagine how it can be for a small woman.

This is so true. At work people comment on my eating habits constantly because my portions are so small...but that is what I have to do along with the lc. I have gotten so tired of hearing the "eat more" cry from family as well. My father jokes with me on the phone almost every night..."why don't you order a pizza or something". I refuse to even go out to dinner with them anymore. I always used to get a lean meat or seafood with veggies or a salad. Always skip the side of starch and the bread. EVERY time I hear how bread and potatos are good for the human body. Well I was 70 lbs heavier eating those things...that alone should prove to them that is not the case.

[maxlharris]

Hey Max, I use a scale that includes body fat persentage. Seems to be close. I'm new so please be nice. I have a 7 1/4 inch wrist and the fatest part of my belly varies a little, 39 inches to 40 inches at the belly button and love handles. What does that work out to... the way you calculate?

~23%.

48 lbs of adipose tissue, 167 lbs of LBM.

To get to a six pack, you will almost definitely need to get below 12%, and probable below 10%.
12% is, erm, about 190 lbs total weight, assuming no change in LBM.
10% is, erm about 185.
Just about everyone can see the six at 8% About 182.

This feels more correct. It's fairly large what a couple of percentage points do when you're in the 200 lb range.

An alternative would be to move your lifting to more of a hypertrophic style of program for a bit, see if you can add some muscle to your frame... say you added 3 lbs of muscle, round you out to 170 lbs of LBM. At 189, you'd be at 10%. And likely have more ab muscle to display as well.

I would NOT suggest doing a lot of crunches or ab exercises. The way to burn the fat is to work the big muscles. If I had to do hypertrophy with someone who has doing less structured programs, we could really focus it down to six basic moves, with emphasis on the first two: Squat, Deadlift, push, pull, lunge, and twist. Work them in something like a 5x5 instead of a 3*12.

Without knowing what you've been up to (I think you were doing B4L, but I might have you confused with someone), it'd be hard to say what I'd change (obviously... if you were doing B4L, I'd recommend a brain scrub of body part exercises in exchange for functional movements, and a scrub of pyramids in exchange for a mix of slow and fast pattern low rep lifts).

I worked something like this for a month to really great effect. I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner, but it is really good if you are already in decent shape and looking for something different.

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=workout.plans&conitem=405c51fb9b523110VgnVCM20000012281eac____

Monday: Press, and squat style exercise
Tuesday: Squat and pull style
Thursday: Pull and lunge
Friday: Deadlift and press.

You do a warmup and some stretching and your intervals/sprints around this program. Hell of a workout.

[laughingW]

This is so true. At work people comment on my eating habits constantly because my portions are so small...but that is what I have to do along with the lc. I have gotten so tired of hearing the "eat more" cry from family as well. My father jokes with me on the phone almost every night..."why don't you order a pizza or something". I refuse to even go out to dinner with them anymore. I always used to get a lean meat or seafood with veggies or a salad. Always skip the side of starch and the bread. EVERY time I hear how bread and potatos are good for the human body. Well I was 70 lbs heavier eating those things...that alone should prove to them that is not the case.

Oh man, yes, this is so familiar. It took a loooooooong time for me to finally tune all that out. At first, every single time someone said something de-railing, I would spend all this energy asking myself, "are they right? could I be kidding myself?" blah blah blah.

You are totally on the right track and I'm sadly glad that I am not alone in that.

[nova202]

that looks like a great work out that you sent Max. I will difenetly try if. I am a beleiver in mixing every thing up from time to time.
I still have not heard the storys of the people that got the six pack abs from diet and exercise and what they did to get there and how long they kept them. Would finf those stories very interesting.

[Mitra]

This is so true. At work people comment on my eating habits constantly because my portions are so small...but that is what I have to do along with the lc. I have gotten so tired of hearing the "eat more" cry from family as well. My father jokes with me on the phone almost every night..."why don't you order a pizza or something". I refuse to even go out to dinner with them anymore. I always used to get a lean meat or seafood with veggies or a salad. Always skip the side of starch and the bread. EVERY time I hear how bread and potatos are good for the human body. Well I was 70 lbs heavier eating those things...that alone should prove to them that is not the case.

I've had comments from people thinking I'm not eating very much, just because my volume of food is smaller than theirs - not taking into account that my food is much denser than theirs. They think I'm eating less than them because the volume is smaller, it doesn't take me as long to eat, and I'm not wandering around picking up fruit and sweets at the end of the meal. My family aren't so bad, because they see that it's better for me, but casual acquaintances sometimes comment.

[maxlharris]

that looks like a great work out that you sent Max. I will difenetly try if. I am a beleiver in mixing every thing up from time to time.
I still have not heard the storys of the people that got the six pack abs from diet and exercise and what they did to get there and how long they kept them. Would finf those stories very interesting.

Part of that is it's very hard to do in the first place. Remember, <10% body fat. Not easy.

Part of it is that this is a heavily female population and <10% bodyfat is typically not healthy for women.

Part of it is that this is an older population, and it is much harder as you get older to get to and maintain low body fat.

Art DeVaney is an older guy with a six who eats a paleo diet and blogs. I think he's pushing 70, but looks closer to 50. He's been at it a long time though.

[laughingW]

Art DeVaney is an older guy with a six who eats a paleo diet and blogs. I think he's pushing 70, but looks closer to 50. He's been at it a long time though.
Mark Sissons is another one. He's over 50 and says when he went low carb and dropped grains, he added muscle and the abs were more defined. He was a runner and not into heavy muscles before. Check out his story on Mark's Daily Apple.

[nova202]

Thanks for suggesting those two blogs, Sissons and Devaney. And you were right...with a little portion control, I am now down to 208.5. That is a new high in low's for me :D