Women to women website?

[SherryJ]

Hey Girls,

Does anyone have experience with this group?

www.womentowomen.com

Sherry

[Relief]

I subscribe to their newsletter and think they are great. This is the clinic that Christiane Northrup, (author of several bestselling health books for women) was partners with before she left private practice. BawdyWench is currently seeing them for menopuase etc.

[BawdyWench]

Geez! Seems I've been AWOL.

YES, I see a Nurse Practitioner at Women to Women. I've heard of women who have had wonderful experiences there.

Not me!

I'm so frustrated with the care I've been given there. I'm seeing her one more time, and if she doesn't come up with something to help me, I won't go back.

It all started in February at my first appointment. Within 5 minutes (and not even hearing all my symptoms and habits and such), she diagnosed me with adrenal fatigue. I had doubts, but ok. She had me take the adrenal stress index, in which you take samples of saliva upon awakening, before noon, after noon, and evening.

My first two readings were low, just out of range, like 12 on a scale of 13 - 24. The second two readings of the day were right in the middle of the normal range.

She put me on a good multi (with iron, which I don't like and told her so, but then ... well, we'll get into attitude later), fish oil, and calcium. For the adrenal fatigue, she put me on 2 Cortaid upon awakening and before noon to boost my cortisol output, plus licorice root at the same time, plus Adreset and Astragalus. I was taking fistfulls of supplements three times a day.

This ended up costing me an average of $133.75 per month, which added up to almost $800 from the time I started them to just recently, when I dropped everything (except the multi, the fish oil, and a few other things).

You see, I just got re-tested for the adrenal stress index. I was convinced the supplements were not working, because I have now gained ANOTHER 15 pounds on top of the 25 I had gained before seeing her.

Was I ever shocked to see the results. I'm WAY out of range on the high side now. Remember that normal range of 13 - 24? I now register at 120. You read that right. 120!

My body has been pumping out so much cortisol, it's amazing I'm functioning at all! I called WtoW and talked with one of the nurses (not the one I usually see), who laughed and said "Oops! Looks like we got you on the high side now!"

Oops?

She told me to drop the licorice root, the Astragalus, and the Adreset, and do half the dose of Cortaid. Not very damn likely! I dropped that, too.

I see my NP in mid-October, and I'll talk with her about it. In the past, she's said she wants me to do a liver and colon cleanse next. I looked on the web site -- around $80 for the week-long plan, or more than $300 for the monthly plan. Not sure which she wants me to do.

Again, not very damn likely.

I told her I eat low-carb, and she frowned. Not good. Your body NEEDS carbs. She says (as does their web site) that Protein Power and Atkins are "fad" diets and are bad because they are "too low in fat and cause metabolic problems." Low in fat?

Instead, she wanted me to do Michael Thurmond's "6-Day Body Makeover" and then seque into the Schwarzbein plan with 90 grams of carbs daily and little or no saturated fat.

The Thurmond plan ended up being less than 800 calories a day, no added fat, 78 grams of carbs. I was famished the entire week. Sure, I lost 6 pounds, but it came right back because I couldn't possibly do it for a 7th day.

And then there's her attitude. I told her that I believed that 90 grams of carbs are too much, we didn't evolve that way, etc. She asked how I "knew" this. I read, I said. What do you read? (Sense the attitude creeping in?) I told her I read books, scientific journals, articles on the web. Oh? Articles on the web, huh? (Attitude.) Yes, I read scientific articles on the web, not the junk. Well, I've been studying this for more than 25 years and I KNOW what I'm talking about.

I'm just not feeling good about my experience there. I'd be glad to discuss this further, if you like. If I don't answer a thread, just PM me.

And, sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear about them.

[deirdra]

Yikes, Bawdy, that's an expensive 15 extra pounds. It sounds like they have turned into a money-making trial & error racket.

The best thing I ever did was to get off "women's" supplements & creams, stop eating soy, and start a high-fat diet and let my body regulate itself. That's when the menopause weight dropped off. Before that, each tweak seemed to send something else off-kilter.

[BawdyWench]

Well, I'm off them now! Did I mention that all these supplements were purchased from WtoW?

I even stopped the estrogen and progesterone they gave me. I had complained about not sleeping. She also got me to admit that a couple times I had night sweats. So, she prescribed the bioID hormones. I've stopped taking them. I want to see how it is to be "clean" again.

Thanks for the support. Mind if I tag along with you a little to check out how you've done the impossible -- taking off the menopause weight gain?

I promise I'm not a scary stalker! :D

[SherryJ]

Ohhh, I'm so sorry, Bawdy! I hope you get straightened out soon...

Hugs!

Sherry

[BawdyWench]

Thanks, Sherry. I just hope my experience is not the norm.

I also wish the Eades would write more about the unique needs of women during this period of life. You know, it's one thing to do 90 grams of carbs and lose weight when you've been on the SAD up to that point; it's a whole other thing when, like me, you've been low-carb for such a long time. I began the LC WOL in 1999.

[BawdyWench]

I just wanted to add something that I hadn't thought of before -- must have been so frustrated with everything that I blocked it out.

Anyway, today all of a sudden certain inconsistencies jumped out at me from out of the blue.

When I first went to W2W in February, she told me:

Don't limit calories.
Eat at least 90 grams of carbs a day, and be sure to get plenty of whole grains like oatmeal and brown rice and eat lots of sweet potatoes.
Don't exercise, or at least do so at minimal intensity only a couple times a week.At my last appointment in October, after telling her that by following her advice (except for the carbs -- I couldn't bring myself to eat more than 20 to 30 a day, and most days a whole lot less), I had gained yet another 20 pounds. Here's what she told me:

You must limit calories to 1200 or less
No starch at dinner or after dinner
Exercise at high intensity (interval training) 3 times a week, and do weight training at least 2 times a weekNow, maybe it's me, but aren't there more than a few inconsistencies here?

On the other hand, I have an acquaintance in town (a local business owner) who goes to W2W, but sees a different person there. She loves it, and has been getting advice that has helped her.

[Missy]

I'm so so sorry Bawdy that your getting inconsistancy's!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Can you switch consultants?! Surely you can, your the customer!!! I know it's so darn aggrevating! Just keep plugging along till you discover the root cause! As stressful as it is Bawdy, I think your on the right track!

[BawdyWench]

Thanks, Missy. Yes, I'm sure I could switch, but I'm just tired of the whole thing right now. I've always done well "self-medicating," so I'm just going to go back to what I feel is right.

I'm experimenting right now with Intermittent Fasting (IF). Dr. Michael Eades wrote about it recently in his blog, and must admit I'm intrigued. So, today was my first day. Went very well, actually. I ended up eating quite a bit less than what I would normally eat in a day, and I feel good.

Time will tell!

[Missy]

Just stick with what it is that you feel BEST with Bawdy! I just feel for you!! It's so frustrating!!! I hope that the right switches flip for you! I'm BIG on relying on my own instincts...so good for you! Keep us updated though!

[BawdyWench]

Well, here it is about 18 months later and I'm resurrecting this thread. You see, I've made another appointment at W2W, but this time with another person. I called that woman in town I mentioned earlier to see if she still goes there and how she's doing. She's doing great and totally loves who she sees. So, I made an appointment with that person.

I have been doing nothing about all this until about 3 months ago. My hot flashes and night sweats had gotten worse, and until one day I knew I had to do something about it. I had gone to work, dropped my stuff off in my office, and then walked around the corner to talk with some guys about a project we were working on. We were laughing and joking around. I left their office, still laughing, and by the time it took me to round to corner to my office (maybe 15 seconds), I was in tears. I knew I couldn't be like this at work, so I called a new women's center.

I met with a doctor, and she was very nice. But, she was VERY young and said things like, "Gee, I love talking to women about menopause." It just set me off. Like she really didn't know much at all about it, but wanted to learn. That should be a good thing, but it struck me wrong.

The other thing was that we started talking about weight and I mentioned I was low-carb and liked it. She strongly advocates Weight Watchers because "it has a point system and really teaches you about food." Huh? What's a point? I know all about fat, protein, and carbs, but I guess I don't know anything because I don't count points. Sheesh.

Anyway, we decided on bio-identical hormones. After a bit of trial and error, we (I) decided on Vivelle-DOT and Prometrium. The symptoms got better, but now I'm starting to get the "beginnings" of the hot flashes again.

I had also asked about testing hormones. She said they don't test; they prefer to prescribe based on how you feel. Well, I feel a bit better, but how do I know if I'm a 10 or a 4?

THEN, Dr. Mike really threw me for a loop. I had mentioned in a comment to a blog entry exactly what I was taking and that they don't test. Here's what he wrote:


You do indeed need to get tested. I like saliva testing because it provides a good measure of the active hormone, because in order to make its way into the saliva, the hormone has to be active. Monitoring how you feel is fine, but there is no substitute for a good laboratory evaluation. You learn a lot of interesting things.

Let me give you an example. MD takes bioidentical hormones so she gets tested. I don’t, but she has been after me to get tested so that I will know what my baseline is. I finally relented and sent off a saliva test a couple of weeks ago, and I got back some surprising results. I was pleased to discover that all my hormones were within normal limits except for two: my estradiol and progesterone were both hugely high, at least for a male. My estradiol was 3.5 pg/ml (normal for males 0.5 - 2.2) and my progesterone was 403 (normal 12-104). MD uses the cream version of her hormones, which, we learned can rub off on a sleeping partner pretty easily. So it turns out that I have been getting my share of her hormones. No wonder my voice is losing some of its resonance and my breasts are getting larger. (Just kidding.) So, many interesting things can be learned from lab tests.
As to the hormones you’re taking, the Vivelle-DOT is fine as long as it’s dosed properly (based on lab results), but I’m not crazy about the Prometrium even though it is bioidentical progesterone. Oral medications of this type go into the blood from the GI tract and make an immediate passage through the liver before reaching the rest of the circulation. How much the liver degrades the medication is a function of how the liver is working at the precise moment the medication hits it.

If the liver’s detox capacity is mildly compromised because of some fatty infiltration or because you’ve taken a recent Tylenol or because you’ve had a glass of wine (or Jameson’s) or even a cup or two of coffee, the dose will make it through largely untouched and blood levels will be high.

If, on the other hand, your liver is working at top capacity, it’s likely that the medication will be detoxed and blood levels will be lower. Varying blood levels are a hallmark of hormones taken orally, which is why we prefer the creams and gels. When rubbed into the skin, these hormones go through the circulation before hitting the liver and are cleared more slowly allowing more precise and unvarying blood levels.

(I don't know why the quote is breaking after the first paragraph, but it was continuous when he wrote it.)

Note the text highlighted in red. I drink coffee every morning and have wine/alcohol most nights (I know, but I do). I've also been known to take Advil and Aleve (don't know if they affect it like Tylenol does).

So now I find out that the Prometrium has likely been doing me no good at all! Not only that, you take the progesterone because if you still have your uterus and take the estradiol alone, your risk of uterine cancer rises dramatically!

That's it. I've called W2W and asked to see the new doc (the one my friend sees). I kept my August appointment with the other doc, too, just in case I still get a bad feeling about W2W.

Wish me luck!

[Mitra]

It really feels as if you each of us has to reinvent the wheel on all this, doesn't it? Let us know how you get on - some of us are following close behind ;).

Though I think I'd be laughed out of the surgery if I talked to my GP about testing (anything but cholesterol). Last time I saw one was about 17 years ago, when I first had back problems, and they basically said that as I wasn't bad enough to need a sick note (for time off work) there wasn't any reason to see them :rolleyes:.

[BawdyWench]

No wonder it's been 17 years, huh? :)

[Mitra]

About five years ago, my allergies were bad, so I went to see a private doctor. He told me to take over the counter anti-histamines for the allergies, and suggested we think about statins.

I'm really really hoping I don't need to get hormones prescribed ;).

[BawdyWench]

Brilliant! You have a drippy nose and the doc wants to put you on statins.

Makes sense to me! :tongue:

[Mitra]

Let's hope yours do better :lol:.

[BawdyWench]

Yes, I have high hopes this time. Of course, I did last time, too, and we all know what happened then.

Still, now at least I know someone who has had luck there.

I wrote another comment to Dr. Mike in his recent blog regarding the original progesterone cream I was prescribed. I said I was told to rub it into my inner thigh. The dose was so large (came with a syringe) that it took forever to rub in. So there I sat, on the edge of the toilet (lid down), rubbing my inner thighs for like 15 minutes every morning.

He responded that it shouldn't take more than 5 SECONDS to rub in, and that I should get a different formulation.

See? So how am I supposed to know I can ask for a different formulation? Actually, I did mention this to the nurse when I called in, and she said everyone's different and she loves the cream. Whatever.

Because of the problems with non-absorption when taking Prometrium (because it has to pass through the liver, and coffee and alcohol, etc. can render it useless), I've started taking it as soon as I get up in the morning. It's usually about 2 hours before I have coffee, so maybe that helps.

Four more weeks until my appointment.

[BawdyWench]

Checking back in to let you know what happened this time.

I saw a new person about 5 weeks ago, and they took blood to test for hormones. Last time they did the saliva testing, but this time they wanted to do the blood testing. Not sure why the change.

Anyway, the new NP seemed nice, though I still got that "granola" feeling from them. She was a little patronizing or something. Couldn't put my finger on it. We were talking about thyroid, and I said I've always wondered about iodine deficiency. She asked how I knew about that. Ummmm, I read. She couldn't believe I knew about iodine's effect on the thyroid and the reason we have iodized salt. Then she said she was proud of me. For some reason, that set me off.

When we started talking about the weight, she said she wanted to refer me back to the original NP because she's doing a new program and is having luck with it. The new NP said that it involves human growth hormone and that Kevin Trudeau has written a lot about it lately.

Kevin Trudeau? King of infomercial fraud? He's even in trouble right now with the FDA over this very program.

His program (not sure if W2W is following it exactly) starts with like 500 calories a day, and you have to get 15 colon cleanses (with a specialist) in the first 30 days. You also need every-other-day injections of human growth hormone. Other rules are to eat only organic produce and meat, no microwaving, limit time under fluorescent lighting, and walking for 1 hour uninterrupted a day. There's more, but I can't remember everything. Who can do this?

No way. I'll stick with low carb, thank you very much.

So now I'm stuck again. I go back this Thursday, and I'll keep that appointment, just to get my test results and some different bio-identical HRT. I just can't stand the place, though. The new NP wanted me to do a urine test (collecting it all day and keeping it in the fridge ... ewwww) to see if I was iodine deficient. I've done a little research and it's extremely unlikely that this is the problem. Apparently, it's so very rare as to not to even merit consideration. So, I won't go ahead with that test (and it's like $150 out of pocket).

I've been trying to find a new doctor in Maine who will test for hormones, who will prescribe the bio-identical hormones from the compounding pharmacy (not patches and pills), who at least tolerates the LC lifestyle, and who isn't "granola-y."

Anyone know of someone that fits these criteria? Please?

[Omlette]

(I don't know why the quote is breaking after the first paragraph, but it was continuous when he wrote it.)

Note the text highlighted in red. I drink coffee every morning and have wine/alcohol most nights (I know, but I do). I've also been known to take Advil and Aleve (don't know if they affect it like Tylenol does).

So now I find out that the Prometrium has likely been doing me no good at all! Not only that, you take the progesterone because if you still have your uterus and take the estradiol alone, your risk of uterine cancer rises dramatically!
!

Maybe I am reading what Dr. Mike wrote differently, but I am taking it as though, if you have drank wine or taken tylenol, then you will get full uptake of the progesterone in to the bloodstream, whereas, if your liver is running properly and not over loaded, then it will take the progesterone out of your system.

I hope that you find someone with useful help soon.

[Omlette]

There is a place that you can get your bloodwork done and they will give you a health print. http://www.yourfuturehealth.com/

I had mine done 3 years ago. There are some tests that I want to have redone now. It gave me a lot of info that allowed me to find a doctor to work with. If the doctor balked at me having my own bloodwork, then he wasn't for me. Oh, insurance doesn't cover it, but it is worth it.

[BawdyWench]

Thanks, Mo! Geez, I didn't even see your post until this morning because it was on a new page.

The site is very interesting. I don't know, though, since I've just paid to have several of these tests done. I'll see how it goes tomorrow and then decide what I want to do. I have to make a decision, too, about the yearly pap smear, etc. I really like my regular doc, who has always done this for me in the past, but feel that maybe I should have a gyno do it for a while (at least until I'm through with menopause and have evened out).

I can either have W2W do it, or go back to the Coast Women's Health Center here in Maine. I saw them once, but they're the ones who don't test for hormone levels. Still, if I talk about it and request that they do so, maybe they'll agree and work with me.

If only all this were easy, huh?

[BawdyWench]

Went to my W2W appointment yesterday. The good news is that my hormones seem to be balanced fairly well -- the bio-identical forms I'm taking (Vivelle-DOT) and Prometrium both seem to be at the right levels.

My blood pressure was up, though. A whopping 150/110!!!!! :eek:

What this is all about, I don't know. Prior to menopause (age 50), it was always low, around 110/70. Then it started inching upwards. Prior to menopause, I gave blood every two months for years but then had to stop when I had a false positive for Hepatitis B. I was tested by my doctor immediately after, and I'm definitely negative for it. However, the Red Cross says if I test false positive one more time, they won't let me donate again. So, I haven't even tried.

I'm 53 now, so over the past couple years, the blood pressure has increased. At first I put it down to being nervous, etc. Now I don't know. I'm confused and upset about it.

Anyway, back to the weight loss front. They are trying to talk me into doing Phase 1 of Kevin Trudeau's "The Weight Loss Cure." Of course, they sell the book in their lobby. Now, I don't know what "Phase 1" consists of, nor would they talk about it ... which I think is what pisses me off the most. They wanted me to simply sign up for the program. I kept asking if there was a brochure or information sheet that described their program so I could get an idea of whether it was something I could live with.

The NP went to talk to the director (the NP I saw 2 years ago who was pushing me to eat 90+ grams of carbs per day). When she came back, she said the other NP would allow me to join the program, but only after I got my blood pressure down. She said that I needed to buy the book and follow Phase 1. I found it very frustrating that I couldn't get any information at all out of them.

AND THEY DEFENDED KEVIN TRUDEAU! The said the FDA has no business "sticking their dirty little noses into everything" and that it's a sound program. I said that I read about the 15 colon cleanses in the first 30 days, and the NP acted surprised (maybe their program doesn't include that; not sure).

Anyway, the only thing I got out of her was that I had to come in weekly to have HcG (human growth hormone) sprayed up my nose. She also said something about calorie cycling.

I did NOT buy the book, and I will not be going back. Ever.

Still, the blood pressure bothers me. I've been LC for about 10 years now, and know this is the way we are supposed to eat. I had a long talk with DH last night (he's away on business), and he says that just because I believe something doesn't make it true. I said that it doesn't make it false, either. He's not 100% sold on low-carb eating.

So the only thing I can do is what I think is right. I'm going to be very strict with LC. Keep track of everything, and NEVER go above 30 ECC a day. I already take magnesium (as per the Eades' recommendation), but am only taking a half dose, with is 2 capsules a day. As of yesterday, I'm upping it to 4 capsules a day.

I've been exercising haphazardly, not at all on a regular basis. It might not help me lose weight, but it will make me feel better, and if I feel better I might take better care of what I eat. I never binge, but I do eat something off-plan several times a week. Again, not much, but perhaps it's too much for me. Maybe I am fooling myself with under-estimating my off-plan forays.

All I can do is try. It's the blood pressure. I know if I lost some weight, the blood pressure will likely come down. That's what I'm hoping for.

So maybe I simply have to be the responsible adult for once in my life and stick to the plan. I have to internalize the fact that I can't have any alcohol (because it's hard to stop at one), and I can't eat any processed foods (even a small handful of chips once a week).

[gitfiddle]

(((Bawdy))) From what I read about the Trudeau business it seems like it's making somebody a LOT of money and I wouldn't touch it with a forty-foot pole. YMMV, but I don't think this WOE contributes to elevated blood pressure. Weight loss does help, of course, and there are many people who claim that their blood pressure went down on LC. Mine did, even though I'm still taking the meds.

Good luck in your quest!

[BawdyWench]

Thanks, Carol. I, too, believe BP goes down on a LC diet. I think it has more to do with menopause and the weight gain associated with it.

[Omlette]

BAWDY - maybe go to a different doc, or somewhere that will do a bp check. I would think that as irritating as W2W is, that your pressure was up some from being apprahensive (sp). Even though I do not follow the plan (need to, want to, but purely stupid and lazy. I keep coming here for inspiration), I am a firm believer that LC is the way to go. Just can't go wrong with fresh veggies and meat and fruit.

[BawdyWench]

I tend to agree, though I go light on the veggies and fruit.

I'm ordering a BP monitor online, so I can check it in the privacy of my own home.

Now that you say it, for the past several years when I went for my physical, the nurse would take my BP and say it's high. I mentioned it to the doc each time, so at the end of the appointment he checked it again. He's always said that I'm fine, and that it's not elevated. I mentioned this at W2W yesterday, but they didn't bother to re-check ....... though after all this talk about Trudeau, it was probably even higher!

:lol:

[gitfiddle]

Bawdy, you might find reassurance with your own BP monitor. My systolic at the GP's office runs 150. Dashing in from work might be a factor, but it's the same activity when I go to my other doctor and he only gets 120, no matter which assistant takes it. At home, I consistantly get 116, 117, when I take it myself.

I've been told that the best measure of BP is to take it first thing in the morning and last thing at night after sitting quietly for five minutes. Also, take it twice each time.

[BawdyWench]

Great minds think alike! I just ordered one through drugstore.com!

[BawdyWench]

Anyway, back to the weight loss front. They are trying to talk me into doing Phase 1 of Kevin Trudeau's "The Weight Loss Cure." Of course, they sell the book in their lobby. Now, I don't know what "Phase 1" consists of, nor would they talk about it ... which I think is what pisses me off the most. They wanted me to simply sign up for the program. I kept asking if there was a brochure or information sheet that described their program so I could get an idea of whether it was something I could live with.

I just Googled Phase 1 and there are a lot of sites that sell what's needed for Phase 1. Here's just one: http://www.naturalcuresstore.com/ca...ss_cure_phase1/ (http://www.naturalcuresstore.com/category/.weightloss_cure_phase1/)

Can you believe this?!?!?!!?!?!?!

The Women to Women Center might do great things for some women, but they've now lost all credibility in my eyes.

[gitfiddle]

Snake oil! :tongue:

[BlancE]

No kidding! $800 for the stuff needed for the first month? That's crazy!!

[BawdyWench]

I know. Kinda makes you wonder what they're thinking, huh?

Check this out: http://www.naturalcuresstore.com/category/.weightloss_cure_phase1/

Please, don't anyone fall for this.