Muscles work better in the AM

[Roadstr]

Have you worked with weights and then you begin to feel your muscles tire and you're not sure how much longer you can continue. Perhaps you have begun a workout and just can't get into it because of your energy level. That fatigue is due to low muscle glycogen. When muscles are running low on carbohydrate fuel they are no longer able to function normally or at a level that can cause growth from heavy lifting. For sure it's a problem on a low carb diet. Dr. Eades has said "milage varies" for marathon runners who just can't perform well without carbs in their diet.

Here is what I do. First thing in the AM when I get up I grab a cup of joe and head to my bench downstairs and start lifting weights. This has two benefits, my muscles are replenished with glycogen and my body is still in a serious fat burning mode. I can get a good 20-30 minute workout lifting heavy weights.

The downside is getting up at 4:30 AM. The upside, you will feel great all day!:D

[laughingW]

Low carb and glycogen is only a problem if you deplete glycogen and then don't wait for it to fill up again before depleting again. Dr. Eades has also written that when gluconeogenisis happens, the first place to store the new sugar is as glycogen.

So, a low carb person can go all day every day on exercise that predominately uses fat, and can "run from the tiger" intermittently - or else keep filling up glycogen with carbs.

The other thing is that as the adaptation to fat-burning gets more advanced, the glycogen-sparing effect gets better too. So more intense exercise uses less glycogen.

All good if you ask me!

PS I don't have very good energy for weights before breakfast. It's better for me at 11 am or 4 pm . hm.

[maxlharris]

Have you worked with weights and then you begin to feel your muscles tire and you're not sure how much longer you can continue. Perhaps you have begun a workout and just can't get into it because of your energy level. That fatigue is due to low muscle glycogen. When muscles are running low on carbohydrate fuel they are no longer able to function normally or at a level that can cause growth from heavy lifting. For sure it's a problem on a low carb diet. Dr. Eades has said "milage varies" for marathon runners who just can't perform well without carbs in their diet.

Here is what I do. First thing in the AM when I get up I grab a cup of joe and head to my bench downstairs and start lifting weights. This has two benefits, my muscles are replenished with glycogen and my body is still in a serious fat burning mode. I can get a good 20-30 minute workout lifting heavy weights.

The downside is getting up at 4:30 AM. The upside, you will feel great all day!:D
#1 - Running a marathon is an inherently unnatural act. So, what works for performance for a marathon runner is not necessarily healthy or worthwhile and while mileage may vary for them, I could not care. I would sooner jump out of an airplane to skydive (another completely unnatural act) than run for long distance.

#2- My experience flies in the face of yours, though I have always been an AM exerciser. When I was working out, I could do 40 minute circuit routines, hard, while in ketosis (not the point of PP, but still). It's a matter of adaptation, as you noted in the other thread (BlueRiverSam's). But you have to give adaptation a chance. That said, there is profit to cycled ketogenics, ala Lyle MacDonald, but you'd have to be working out pretty hard before you'd need to do that.

[lczeledoc]

Have you worked with weights and then you begin to feel your muscles tire and you're not sure how much longer you can continue. Perhaps you have begun a workout and just can't get into it because of your energy level. That fatigue is due to low muscle glycogen. When muscles are running low on carbohydrate fuel they are no longer able to function normally or at a level that can cause growth from heavy lifting. For sure it's a problem on a low carb diet. Dr. Eades has said "milage varies" for marathon runners who just can't perform well without carbs in their diet.

:D

Once you have adapted to a ketogenic diet it doesn't matter. I usually lift weights at around 4 pm, sometimes after having fasted all day. I don't particularly feel spent. I eat about an hour after the workout and add some extra carbs for glycogen replenishment.

Muscles grow after the workout, if you lift with enough intensity, you will elicit a GH response to stimulate muscle growth. The rest is enough calories and rest.

[SandyO]

same for me, dont have a problem with cardio or yoga in the morning but lifting weights is definitly better for me in the evenings. then they get the rest they need (as lczeledoc says, muscle builds when they rest, exactly when you sleep).

iam new on PP but not on lc, i have a higher carb meal (such as wholemeal pasta) with lots of protein, for diner after workouts, and that always works absolutly fine for me.

[maxlharris]

On the other hand, I know some people on another group who do 30-100 mile bike rides who report "bonking" unless they take some carbs. But that's distance exercise. For lifting, unless you are trying to get into competitive bodybuilding, power lifting, olympic lifting, pro or college football, wrestling or boxing, or really anything that requires multi hour workouts, if you're bonking on weights (as opposed to working to failure) you are probably overtraining.

[blueriversam]

It's very interesting... I need to read more about how the liver works, glycogen depletion, and how quickly the body "catches up" to low carb. I have had these experiences:

--Bonking occurs for me if I start a long (25 mile or more mountain bike or 75+ mile road bike) ride in the morning, especially if I have eaten carbs during the ride. I can maintain a sufficient level of non-bonkiness (???) if I use "Gu" or other carbohydrate gels, but once I bonk, I don't come back

--If I have a morning race, I eat 2 hot dogs w/o the bun in the morning. I don't tell my friends because they'll laugh at me. I have one packet of Power Gel (which has less sugar and more electrolytes than Gu) 10 min before the race starts and one mid-race

--Riding in the evenings I feel like I can go forever--I can't remember ever bonking on an afternoon or evening ride.

--stopping mid-century (100 mi road ride) to have pizza is A REALLY BAD IDEA on many levels.

I was low carb (at <30ECC/day) 2 years ago and I remember that it was very strange to bike. I would get dizzy, but I felt like I had an unlimited supply of energy and much more power. I think the dizziness might have been an electrolyte imbalance. I am rereading the books and I ordered a ton of crap to help me this time, I'm very eager to see what happens with racing next spring!

[Gabriel Guzman]

It's very interesting... I need to read more about how the liver works, glycogen depletion, and how quickly the body "catches up" to low carb. I have had these experiences:

According to Steven Phinney, who studied competitive bikers and their adaptation to a ketogenic diet, it took these men somewhere in the vicinity of 6 weeks to adapt to their low-carb diet. Their performanced decereased at the beginning but after the adaptation period, they not only recovered their performance to base line levels but also improved it beyond that point. We placed a pdf with this study here (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68).

Nice to see you Sam!! :)

[LBJ]

I would really like some feed back on this one please. I read where if you have anything to eat before you lift that you will not be able to produce hgh? I have no idea about the science behind this but would be curious to hear what others think.

[maxlharris]

I would really like some feed back on this one please. I read where if you have anything to eat before you lift that you will not be able to produce hgh? I have no idea about the science behind this but would be curious to hear what others think.
Sounds unlikely. Do you have a link to the story?

[LBJ]

I read it somewhere i just dont remember where will try to find it. I was just kind of curious to see if anyone else had read or heard this. How do you like chicago? Im about 60 miles south of you. So let me just say welcome to illinois.

[maxlharris]

Enjoying Chicago so far. Have been here about six months.

On the HGH food connection: I think the science behind this has to do with Insulin and IGF-1. The common story is that insulin is bad for muscle growth (a little and this is untrue, a lot and it is true). If you eat protein and fat, you will have less problem. It's when you load on carbs. Most people, when exercising, carb load. Which will kill HGH, assuming that it's critical.

[LBJ]

Thanks Max i believe thats pretty much what the article said i wish i knew where i read it but will keep looking. I just started lifting again im in my 11th week. I eat after i work out but have a protien shake right before i eat. I lost 50 lbs with this woe but want to add weight back on the right way. Im 51 so the most i can exspect to add on of muscle is about 12lbs a year from everything ive read. But would be happy with that. Again thanks Max and enjoy the city.

[Gabriel Guzman]

The Eades talk about hgh in PPLP, not in the context of exercise but in the context of 'night snacking'. Insulin (and carbs for that matter), don't help in the release of that little amount of growth hormone, which is release when we are in our deep sleep. Thus, sugary snacks before going to bed are not encouraged.

I imagine the same reasoning may apply to sugary food before insulin. However, there is little growth hormone release during intense resistance exercise. The release comes afterwards and not very much, just enough to triger IGF-1, which is what drives muscle protein synthesis after exercise. It may be that sugary foods before exercise defeats the purpose of encouraging muscles to use fuel other than sugar for energy production.

[LBJ]

Thanks for the info Gabe i appreciate the feed back. I think you and Max covered it for me. I realize that the older we get the less hgh we produce so i dont want to do something to impede the process.

[Gabriel Guzman]

Thanks for the info Gabe i appreciate the feed back. I think you and Max covered it for me. I realize that the older we get the less hgh we produce so i dont want to do something to impede the process.

And that is actually a good thing (the decrease in production of hgh that is). We don't want a whole lot of that powerful hormone once we're done with our development. The little bit we produce, however, is right what we need!

[Missy]

And that is actually a good thing (the decrease in production of hgh that is). We don't want a whole lot of that powerful hormone once we're done with our development. The little bit we produce, however, is right what we need!


hgh and hgc are totally DIFFERENT hormones, aren't they?

[Gabriel Guzman]

I try not to be good with acronyms... ;) What is 'hgc'? :o

[LisaS]

hgh and hgc are totally DIFFERENT hormones, aren't they?
yes, totally different: but I think you mean hcg not hgc
hgh - human growth hormone
hcg - Human chorionic gonadotropin

[Missy]

Sorry Gabe...I must be sleepy. hcg is what I meant! Sorry.

hgh and hcg

[Gabriel Guzman]

Okay... I got it now... Human Choriogonadotropin (hCG). I ellaborated in the Community Conversations, where that discussion was moved :)

Hi Lisa! Nice to see you!!!

[Missy]

((((((thank you!!!!!!)))))

[Roadstr]

Well, I continued to get up and work out between 4:30-5 AM until mid December. It did a world of good with increased strength, especially the smith machine and deep knee bends... progress that I've been longing for, but didn't really want to work for it. I increased my carbs after a couple of weeks and gained about 10 lbs. between November and January. I'm decreasing my carbs again today. I'll see how long I last because my lifting suffers so much, but not so much if I lift in the morning when glycogen stores are higher. I will supplement creatine to see if that helps this time.

I think discussion about hormones and diet pales in comparison to getting your butt under the weights. I really noticed changes when I lifted 4-5 days a week. I know all about muscle grows on days off and over training... disregarding those thoughts the gains were there.

Happy lifting everyone!

[maxlharris]

FWIW: I like the smith machine for pretty much one, maybe two things, maybe 3 things.
1- bodyweight rows
2- A particularly type of calf raise that involves heavy weight and leaning into the bar that you would topple with a free weight.
3- Chin/Pull ups.

For everything else, it moves the bar in a straight line, which does work the primary muscle you are working, but does not work the stabilizing muscles (you don't need to work to stabilize a Smith bar) and can lead to uneven development. Those stabilizing muscles are the things that work in concert with the primary muscles to keep you healthy and mobile.

Granted, smith bench press is better than couch surfing, but it is not to be confused with a dumbbell or barbell press that can move in three dimensions. Even with lighter weight (generally, you can lift more on the Smith).

[Roadstr]

I agree with you except for the one exercise I use the smith machine for and those are deep knee bends or crunches. In October I was working 8-12 reps with now weights (except bar) and those were not all the way down. Now I do more reps with weights to a full squat. I feel it throughout my body, gut, back, neck... anyway I realize it doesn't work the stabilizers as much but it's better than holding a couple of 40 lb dumbells and squating and I don't have a bar. It's given me the stabilizing that I needed to work up to full weighted dips.
There's one caveat to the argument that the smith machine eliminates stabilizing muscles and I agree that it does compared to a bar. Of course each exercise has it's own benefit and some may work the synergistic or stabilizer muscles more than others, however if you can't work out the main muscle you are targeting it's not going to develop and there isn't much to say about the growth of the stabilizers either. That's what machines do for you for a beginner and I was a beginner on DEEP knee bends. I use a mix of exercises for each muscle group and I think lunges work many more stabilizers than crunches. Crunches can't be beat for exercising the greatest number of muscle groups, no matter how you do 'em... IMO.


FWIW: I like the smith machine for pretty much one, maybe two things, maybe 3 things.
1- bodyweight rows
2- A particularly type of calf raise that involves heavy weight and leaning into the bar that you would topple with a free weight.
3- Chin/Pull ups.

For everything else, it moves the bar in a straight line, which does work the primary muscle you are working, but does not work the stabilizing muscles (you don't need to work to stabilize a Smith bar) and can lead to uneven development. Those stabilizing muscles are the things that work in concert with the primary muscles to keep you healthy and mobile.

Granted, smith bench press is better than couch surfing, but it is not to be confused with a dumbbell or barbell press that can move in three dimensions. Even with lighter weight (generally, you can lift more on the Smith).

[maxlharris]

The counter argument:
What machines do for beginners:


Teach them bad form

With no form, you cannot learn good form
Many machines (IE shoulder press), teach you actively bad form.

Are actually more dangerous

Specifically the leg press machine.

When your back curls on this, you are putting a ton of stress on your lower spinal column
Further, you aren't actually working the muscles you think you are when this happens.

Other machines have this effect to a lesser extent, but I would caution anyone I care about on doing leg presses with very strict form.

Move a lot of weight without any actual result

The leg press machine in particular

I know a lot of guys who can leg press a Hummer and can't squat their weight on a bar. So, it's minimally indicative of a functional movement, unless you have a large weight that you sit down and push with your legs.

Nearly every machine, save the lat pull is guilty of this same flaw.

It's context free weight bearing movememnt.
It typically doesn't translate to functional strength.

You seldom move a muscle, in the real world, in isolation. So training it in isolation does not increase function in the real world.




Now, this is maybe an extreme indictment of machines. But my reading and experience suggests that machines don't really work people very well. As for the beginner, they should probably get good on moving their own bodyweight around before they hit weights with any zeal.

Last: I wonder if we have a terminology disagreement here.
Crunches here are like situps that are supposedly lower impact. My reading suggests that there is no real good reason to do these, as the rectus abdominus muscle is not really used for forward flexion but rather stabilization, and they put a lot of pressure, when done properly, on the spine, in a way you're not really meant to put it.

But from the context of the discussion, I think you are talking about something like a squat, which I would wholeheartedly agree with you on, except to suggest you might drop some weight and try it on the squatting rack instead of the Smith. It is a world of difference (I speak from personal experience here) in what you work and how hard you work when you add in the stabilization of the bar to the weight of the bar. I would concur that squats (and deadlifts) are really the best exercises you can do to work the most muscle the most efficiently in the most useful way.

[Roadstr]

Max and others... sorry for my previous post. I was referring to squats when I used the words crunches and dips... WHAT WAS I THINKING, DOH!
I agree with everything you point out Max, good points on all. The next time I'm at Bally's I'll get in the squat rack and see how it feels.

[maxlharris]

Trust me on this, drop the weight a bit from what you're doing on the Smith. You'll be surprised.

[LBJ]

Hey Max i know your down on machines but for me starting over at 51 i find i can incorporate both machines and free weights into my routine and come up with a very beneficial workout. Ive read DR. Arnots book on turning back the clock which at one time was suggested reading by the Eades. He has both options in his book but also has pictures of some of the exercises. Its been very beneficial to me anyway. It seems to me that its all about propper form.

[lczeledoc]

You can always start your training program with a mix of machines and free weights. As you progress and feel more comfortable shift towrds using more free weights. I now only use the seated cable row machine.
Free weights really are better. Dumbells are an excellent choice for beginners, allow to learn a new movement with less weight and more range of motion. Also, very good if you have limb imbalalnces, which we all do.

[maxlharris]

Hey Max i know your down on machines but for me starting over at 51 i find i can incorporate both machines and free weights into my routine and come up with a very beneficial workout. Ive read DR. Arnots book on turning back the clock which at one time was suggested reading by the Eades. He has both options in his book but also has pictures of some of the exercises. Its been very beneficial to me anyway. It seems to me that its all about propper form.

One of the main reasons I am "down on machines" is because they do not force you into proper form. In some cases, they push you into improper form. In a lot of other cases, they isolate muscle groups by taking out the stability portion of the work that you get with a free weight, which is not particularly useful for people who aren't bodybuilders and is going to make people MORE injury prone.

My reading suggests that it would be better to work out using bodyweight only, rather than loading on a machine. That's the direction I'm heading when I resume my training in the next week or so. Strictly bodyweight. When I get very good with that, I will resume weights.

[lczeledoc]

Hi Max,

Any reason you are not working out with weights now? I am doing lots of body weight stuff, dips, pull-ups, push-ups. I am doing more of the Crossfit like workouts. Once in a while I'll do some heavy Deadlifts and Squats with low reps

[maxlharris]

I haven't been working out at all.

As to why I'm going back to bodyweight when I was lifting reasonable weight before? A few things.
1- I'm curious how far I can get without weights. If you look at gymnasts, they do not lift weights, but they are massive in a functional way. I don't think I want to be massive (call me nuts) but I do want to grow it in a functional way.
2- Alwyn Cosgrove and others have suggested that if you cannot do the bodyweight stuff, you are probably wasting your time with weights. For all the lifting I used to do, body weight inverted rows, chins/pulls, and dips remain challenging. More than challenging. I'd like to get them to where they are merely challenging.
3- access. The weight room at my gym at work is not particuarly well stocked. Neither is the gym at the tennis club.

[lczeledoc]

I agree mostly with what you said about bodyweight exercises. One thing to be considered is that the obese might have not be able to do much of bodyweight exercises. I couldn't do even one chin-up two years ago, when I was 45lb heavier. I don't think you need to completely abandon weights. Concentrate on BW exercises and supplement with a few choice weight exercises, e.g. deadlifts, push presses, etc.

[maxlharris]

I agree mostly with what you said about bodyweight exercises. One thing to be considered is that the obese might have not be able to do much of bodyweight exercises. I couldn't do even one chin-up two years ago, when I was 45lb heavier. I don't think you need to completely abandon weights. Concentrate on BW exercises and supplement with a few choice weight exercises, e.g. deadlifts, push presses, etc.

In an optimal world, I would do mostly bodyweight with the addition of deadlifts and loaded squats. In the world I live in, I don't own a barbell, a bench or a squat rack and I do not have space for them at home. And I am not currently in the gym flow. The pieces of equipment I have at home are:
1- Swiss ball
2- 5 lbs dumbbells
3- 10 lb dumbbells
4- 15 lb dumbbells
5- 20 lb dumbbells

I am thinking of getting something like this (http://www.amazon.com/Everlast-Multi-Function-Chinning-Bar/dp/B00091RXN2/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1232121394&sr=8-3) to go with it, but I want to get back into the flow first.

When I am sufficiently back into the flow, maybe I will work the gym in.

But then again, it's about goals. And my goals for resistance exercise have pretty much always been:
1- fat loss
2- functional improvement
3- definition

So, max rep lifting is not really compatible.

Everyone has their own goals. I forget this from time to time. The reason I am strongly against machines is that they are, with varying degrees, dangerous (the leg press machine is the worst) and they are overly isolating. I don't have anything against free weights, I'm just not seeing how they fit my goals and my situation at present. I don't begrudge anyone their push press. Curls on the other hand, but that's a different thread already.

[laughingW]

I agree mostly with what you said about bodyweight exercises. One thing to be considered is that the obese might have not be able to do much of bodyweight exercises. I couldn't do even one chin-up two years ago, when I was 45lb heavier. I don't think you need to completely abandon weights. Concentrate on BW exercises and supplement with a few choice weight exercises, e.g. deadlifts, push presses, etc.

I can do modifications of bodyweight exercises even while obese. I too dislike machines because of all the things Max said and I'll add one, if you are a short woman the ergonomics make it all worse.

Squat - use a ball squat and compensate with range of motion and speed

Deadlift - one is already lifting what, 100 pounds on the frame

Pushup - wall pushups, ball pushups with the ball holding whatever percent of weight is needed

Pullup - ball pullup, have the ball hold whatever percent of your weight is needed

I also have Clubbells which i use for the force generation of traction and torque:

"
Traction, like when healing bone after a break, stimulates the osteoclastic/osteoblastic effect increasing bone density (fighting off osteoporosis) and stimulates bone barrow (bolstering your immune system, as well as muscle growth.)

Torque distracts the joints, creating space, which washes the joint capsules with nutrition and lubrication - unlike the compression of lifting weights which removes space and as a result squeezes out the joints starving them of nutrition and lubrication. Torque also requires only light relative weight, since the action of swinging, increases force production through increased speed, rather than increased weight. This preserves joints while producing an exponentially (rather than adding weight geometrically) increasing force.

And most importantly, swinging weight allows you to move through the body’s true functional range of motion, rather than binding muscle into isolation. Unlike a tinman trapped in his own armored shell, swinging weight frees your movement and makes you feel great as well as increasing your strength and fitness."

[lczeledoc]

In an optimal world, I would do mostly bodyweight with the addition of deadlifts and loaded squats. In the world I live in, I don't own a barbell, a bench or a squat rack and I do not have space for them at home. And I am not currently in the gym flow. The pieces of equipment I have at home are:
1- Swiss ball
2- 5 lbs dumbbells
3- 10 lb dumbbells
4- 15 lb dumbbells
5- 20 lb dumbbells

IBut then again, it's about goals. And my goals for resistance exercise have pretty much always been:

1- fat loss
2- functional improvement
3- definition

So, max rep lifting is not really compatible.

Everyone has their own goals. I forget this from time to time. The reason I am strongly against machines is that they are, with varying degrees, dangerous (the leg press machine is the worst) and they are overly isolating. I don't have anything against free weights, I'm just not seeing how they fit my goals and my situation at present. I don't begrudge anyone their push press. Curls on the other hand, but that's a different thread already.

Well you can do a lot with what you have available for your stated goals. You can do circuits with:

1) DB swings (instead of kettlebells)
2) Burpees
3) Goblet squats
4) Renegade Rows.
5) Box jumps
6) Push-ups.
7) Jump squats
8) Push press.
9) Squat with your wife weight--)

I have been doing a lot of circuit type training ala Crossfit, about two a week and sometimes one heavy weight low rep session. It is working great for me.

I pretty much have the same goals as you for weight training (for now). I really couldn't sustain the heavy lifting all the time, too much wear and tear. My current protocol is much more sustainable and fun. Once I am down to about 10-11% BF I might go on a muscle building phase (arms). I am 225lbs. now--about 19% BF.

[maxlharris]

Well you can do a lot with what you have available for your stated goals. You can do circuits with:

1) DB swings (instead of kettlebells)
2) Burpees
3) Goblet squats
4) Renegade Rows.
5) Box jumps
6) Push-ups.
7) Jump squats
8) Push press.
9) Squat with your wife weight--)

I have been doing a lot of circuit type training ala Crossfit, about two a week and sometimes one heavy weight low rep session. It is working great for me.

I pretty much have the same goals as you for weight training (for now). I really couldn't sustain the heavy lifting all the time, too much wear and tear. My current protocol is much more sustainable and fun. Once I am down to about 10-11% BF I might go on a muscle building phase (arms). I am 225lbs. now--about 19% BF.
Right now, it's about the goals and the motivation. And that's basically what it should be for everyone. Match your goals and your motivation to the program. I am not motivated enough to do anything like crossfit, even in the home.

[sugar_lips]

Sounds unlikely. Do you have a link to the story?

I read that in Dr Eades's book, that if you want to STOP the human growth hormone from being released you need to just eat before and immediately after your work out. I found that strange too