Prepackaged Protein Drinks

[Omlette]

Max - I remember you posting one, but I couldn't find it when I went searching for it.

I used to drink Atkins, but I don't like the taste of the "new and improved".

I'm looking for a premixed to drink at night. I'll take all suggetions, but if it is one that is really creamy like milk, that would be great.

[Spruce Goose]

I'm not a big fan of the change to the Atkins shakes. I don't prefer the new taste but so far I've stuck with them because I don't hate them either.

[maxlharris]

Worldwide Nutrition Pure Protein Shakes. 35g in the regular (~$2.20/can) or 21g in the Lite (~$1.70/can). Lower carb than the Atkins. Flavored better, in my humble as well. I prefer the vanilla, with the cookies n cream being my second favorite.

[Gaelen]

Also try EAS Carb Control RTD shakes in the paper-box package.
I'm always a fan of chocolate flavors, and their are good, but their vanilla is also tasty--and it's tough to make a good vanilla.

[Relief]

I recently got the Premium Nutrition brand at Costco--fabulous. creamy and delish--they only had chocolate ( sorry Max) 30 gr protein and 2 grams carb. Sucralose and A-K as sweeteners. and no soy! they were $23--for 18 not bad.

I love the EAS ones recommended by Gaelen and these were as good or better and much cheaper.

[BlancE]

I like the EAS chocolate shakes too. The dark chocolate is my favorite. I haven't found a vanilla premix that I like...they are all too sweet for my taste.

[Omlette]

I bought the EAS last night to have for a few days this week. I bought the vanilla. For me, it is so hard to find a chocolate that tastes right. I'm very picky about chocolate "milk".

Will look up the premium nutrition one. I haven't been able to find the worlwide nutrtion.

[kwe730]

I was so excited to see the Worlwide Pure Protein Shakes in my TJ's, but I mistakenly got the "light" one with 21 grams of protein instead of 35 grams. I got the vanilla and was very disappointed. Have to go back and try the one with 35 grams. I'm trusting Max's recommendation here! :)

I have tried the vanilla EAS in the box and I like that a lot. However, it would be nice to find a good-tasting ready to drink with more protein. The EAS I bought is only 17 grams.

Kim

[Omlette]

I drank one of the EAS's last night. I just wish it had a thicker consistancy.

I tried finding the Premium Nutrition shake on line, but I couldn't find it anywhere. There is not a costco in my state.

Still haven't found teh WorldWide Nutrition shakes yet, locally. I haven't had a chance to go to GNC. I may have to order them, but I really wanted to try the flavors before I did.

[BlancE]

I drank one of the EAS's last night. I just wish it had a thicker consistancy.

I know what you mean. Plus the protein content is lower than some others so I end up drinking two.

The Atkins shakes have a thicker mouthfeel but the side effects are not so good if you are sensitive to sugar alcohols. :rolleyes:

[maxlharris]

Worldwide Nutrition is available at:
Trader Joes
The Vitamin Shoppe

Those are the two national stores that I know carry them. You can also get them through netrition.

[Omlette]

We don't have Trader Joes nor do we have a Vitamin Shoppe.

Guess, they think folks in MS don't care about their health or weight. LOL

[maxlharris]

Guess, they think folks in MS don't care about their health or weight. LOL
Based on the national data, it's possible that, on average, they're right.

[Omlette]

Yeah, on national data. I think a large part of it is being poor and uneducated about proper nutrition.

The state health dept that governs daycare menus believes that mac&cheese is okay for a protein. That will be the entree. Well, my son does not care for pasta.

Now, having said that. MS does have huge campaigns going about exercise and "healthy" eating.

One more defense for us Mississipians, we have a hard time locating healthful foods. few farmer's markets, no place to buy fresh meat. We have Kroger, walmart, and a few mom & pop grocers. What fresher, non-hormone, etc raised meat we can get is expensive. This is why I try to make the best decisions I can, but I can't eat as clean as I would like. I don't have the money to do it.

I have petitioned Whole Foods to put a store in. We are in a prime location that meets their criteria, but they haven't done it.

[maxlharris]

Hrm, not to dump on the south east, but:
1- It's a culture of crap eating from way back.
2- Hormone free meat is expensive everywhere. I don't bother, despite the local presence of Whole Wallet and Profiteer Joe's.
3- Uneducated is, in my estimation, a cultural issue as much as a wealth issue. Education is an investment in time and soul. You get back roughly proportional to what you put in. My experience is that a lot of people across the exurbs and rural areas tend to not value it in any real way, so it tends to be poor. MS and the southeast in general, tends to have a lot more exurb/rural spaces than urban/suburb type population centers.
4- Lack of farmer's markets and fresh meat must be a lack of demand thing, because there's no lack of farming there. Here in Chicago, where the isn't a farm in 50 miles, they come from neighboring (including Michigan) states. Clearly, the demand is here, while the farms are not.

Now, I don't have it in for Mississippi, but there's a lot of endemic cultural stuff that means no Whole Wallet/Profiteer Joe's/farmer's markets/organic farmers, etc. Some things that I think are related:

Here's an interesting stat about MS. MS has 21 Starbucks to 72 Wal*Marts. This is the second lowest ratio of Starbucks to WalMarts in the nation. Big franchise companies like McDonalds and Starbucks and big retail companies like Wal*Mart have very sophisticated datamining tools to figure out where their potential customers are liable to live. Wal*Mart has obviously decided that a lot of customers live in MS. Of course, it borders Arkansas, so we're talking Wal*Mart country and early expansion.

Starbucks on the other hand, has only 21 locations statewide, and of those, 2 are on University campus, 3 are in Krogers, 3 are in Targets, and three more are spread across an airport, a Bass Pro Shops and a Casino up in Tunica. Only 10 free standing Starbucks in the whole state. And really, let's consider those locations I've dismissed:
University Campus locations: Young people, with high levels of education. Good location.
Airport: People who fly are generally higher income than the general population.
Casino: People are loose with money in casinos and need coffee for long slot sessions.
Bass Pro Shops: What I know about bass fishing is contained here, but I'm expecting a sport that requires a boat, and sells carbon fiber rods and fish finding radar generally attracts a slice of society with a little more wealth than average. Or at least disposable income.
Target: Again, income. Otherwise, they'd be at K- or Wal* Mart.
Lastly, Kroger: I'm gonna hazzard a guess and suggest that either Kroger is the nice grocery store, these are the "nice" Krogers, or these Krogers serve urban/ritzy suburbs.

Again, the folks in Washington know what they're up to, since they built this whole Latte Empire from nothing in 30 years.

Here's something that might get you to scratch your noggin a bit.
Do the communities cause Wal*Mart or Starbucks to come or do Wal*Mart and Starbucks cause the communities to fit their customer profiles? Or is there a feedback loop?

I'm going to suggest that Starbucks is self-reinforcing and Wal*Mart is too. The more often you go to Starbucks and have Starbucks, the more you become more like a Starbucks customers. Ditto for Wal*Mart. Again, I'm a flat out, honest, elitist. I like Starbucks and I avoid setting foot in Wal*Mart like it's contagious (or church... there's a lot of evangelical Christians in MS and very few Catholics... I wonder).

Any rate, I think large systemic things will have to change with MS before Whole Wallet or Profiteer Joe's moves in. I'd hope for Costco first, but with 70+ Wal*Marts and who knows how many Sam's Clubs, and the general state of the state, I don't suppose this is gonna happen anytime soon either.

[hawk]

I hate Walmart..We have an awesome grocery store owned by a family that will get anything I ask them for. They really try to stock whatever I want.

Walmart...would they give a rip? They are just a chain. They just opened their super Walmart down the street from my AL's and I am afraid they will put Al's out of business. We are rural.

What a crime. I asked for Dreamfields..we got it. I asked for no hormone no preservative chicken ..we got it.

I would not mind a Trader Joes or a Costco. The nearest Trader Joe is downtown Chicago on Ontario. I have to take the train in if I want to shop there.

[laughingW]

I live within biking distance of Trader Joes, Whole Paycheck, Costco, 7 Starbucks (2 in high end groceries, 2 drive-thrus, 1 in high end mall, 2 in nearby strip malls), and 2 farmer's markets. yukky yuppie high tech spending land. This is in a suburb of Portland, one of the best biking cities in the US, very blue and very green politically.

It sure doesn't seem fair that other communities have so little choice.

I know! Hawk, I'll send you stuff from my markets, if you will go to the Calma Optimal Foods deli on Milwaukie Ave in Chicago for some of the "Polish Atkins" stuff. I would love to visit.

I mostly shop at New Season's (a local chain that specializes in local food, better than Whole Paycheck and Profiteer Joe's imho, the owners have been refining their service since the organic 70s! ) and the farmer's markets. And since I just shop for me, imagine how little at a time! Meat, some cheese, and as few veggies as I can gag. Although now is the time of year for Delicata squash - yum.

[maxlharris]

I live within biking distance of Trader Joes, Whole Paycheck, Costco, 7 Starbucks (2 in high end groceries, 2 drive-thrus, 1 in high end mall, 2 in nearby strip malls), and 2 farmer's markets. yukky yuppie high tech spending land. This is in a suburb of Portland, one of the best biking cities in the US, very blue and very green politically.

It sure doesn't seem fair that other communities have so little choice.
I wonder if fairness really enters the equation.

Portland and surrounds are one of the most liberal places in the states. More interest in Costco, no interest in Walmart. More interest in Starbucks and Trader Joes and Farmers markets. You have to have a culture of people who care about this stuff, and while someone is going to maybe piss on me for suggesting that generally speaking, liberal communities get more of this stuff, I'm going to suggest that the first people to care about organic were, on average, more progressively tilted.

Chicago, ditto. I don't know where Walmart is here in Chicago. I know that Starbucks moving into my neighborhood a few years ago was controversial, because there are a lot of beloved locally owned coffee shops (harder to put into a ratio against Walmart, but probably more blue slanted than Starbucks).

What I meant to get at is that the lack of choices faced by people in Mississippi and across the south is endemic to the people who live there. If you want more choice, you probably have to organize some friends to go to Kroger's and ask for the stuff you want. Or set up a CFA. But, it's about what they call Cluster theory. This is international development stuff. You have a guy, from, say, Nigeria. He comes to the US, learns to be a brain surgeon, and goes back to help Nigeria develop. Except they don't have nurses, or anethesiologists, or fMRIs or any of the cluster of things you need to be a big, help the country, brain surgeon. If you want to develop, you have to build the whole cluster together. And that, for a suburb/exurb/rural community means organizing.

I leave you this fall season with a bit of lunacy from Arlo Guthrie:

And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them.
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the guitar.
Now, you might want to organize around something better than the chorus of a rambling, 30 minute song that's tangentially about the Vietnam War, but can you imagine, 50 people, next week, going into Kroger's and asking them to carry, I dunno, Organic Turkey Breasts.

[maxlharris]

To quote one of my favorite pieces from Gone with the Wind...
"Askin' ain't gettin'."
"But I still have to ask!"

[Relief]

I must apologize for steering everybody wrong on the shakes I recommended--the name is PREMIER Nutrition. ( sheesh, am I blond or what?) they do have a website: http://premiernutrition.com/ (http://premiernutrition.com/)
You can buy them from that site but they are much pricier than they are at the Costco.

I really like them a lot.

[Omlette]

Max - I think a large part of MS not having certain things like upper end grocers and a lot of starbucks, is that most people here are of lower income. I have a 2 starbucks within 2 miles of my house. 1) I had cut down my number of times going there because of money. It is $9.32 every time I went and 2) Protein Power. Needless to say, I was not getting sugarfree coffee. I love their banana nut bread.

We have many many farmers in the state, but most of them are commercial farmers. They are already contracted. Plus, many are cotton, corn, rice, catfish, soybean & sweat potato (the capital of the world is just 9 miles from my hometown). Those farmers are not giving up any of their land to produce things that can be sold on a small scale locally. Secondly, many people in this state have their own gardens, can, and freeze the food themselves. I just happen to not be one of them.

I must say that I took offense (even though I know you did not mean it) that we don't care and are just stupid. (I was glad to see that you included the entire SE, though and not just MS.) The rural areas just don't have the population to carry starbucks, but they do have the poor to buy at walmart. I think that a lot of people will quit eating McD's as much, because it has gotten much more expensive than it used to be. However, when they can put a 1/2 lb of the cheapest meant in a $1.79 box of hamburger helper and fix a 50cent can of corn, the they will feed a family of 4.

Uneducated about nutrition in that these people grew up eating what mom & dad fixed for them. Now, we know that even if they are "educated" by nutritionist and the gov't, they are still going to have issues. If they are only able to afford what walmart has on their shelves at a cheap price then why are they going anywhere else.

I loathe walmart, but due to prices, I am having to shop there more often for certain staples that my husband and son eat due to them being $1-$2 cheaper than Kroger. I know that doesn't sound like much, but it is when you are spending near $200/week on groceries, that may end up saving 10 or 20 dollars.

We do have Fresh Market - but it is overpriced. I will go there for special things, and I have a couple of health food stores that sell organic or all natural stuff that I shop. Again, it all comes back to budget.

Other than Jackson Metro, the MS side of Memphis, and the coast, there are only a few towns that will have 50,000 pop. My hometown has 5,000 people. Why would a starbucks go in there? They wouldn't.

Okay, I'm rambling, and I can't get my thoughts together right now. I need to get back busy at work.

[Omlette]

As of August 2008, Wal-Mart's presence in Mississippi includes:

Supercenters: 60
Discount Stores:5
Neighborhood Markets: 1
Sam's Clubs: 6
Distribution Centers: 2



There are only 21 Starbucks in MS. Most in the Jackson Metro area. Which is only right since this is the largest population concentration. 3 college towns.

5 Target Stores

I couldn't find a number count for Kroger stores. There have got to be more than Walmart, but might not be. We used to have Jitney and Winn Dixie, but not many now. there just isn't much choice when it comes to food shopping.

Quick Stats on Population. I think population makes more of a difference than our education status. Stores what to make money. They make the most money with there are a lot of people living in a small area.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/28000.html

[Omlette]

Max - you have to forgive me. I get a little defensive over my homestate. It's kind of like, "I can talk about my family, but no one else better..."

I know that MS is in a sad shape, but I really think that a lot of being poor directly correlates with being fat as far as the overall state is concerned. Not for all, but for a large portion.

I do want to leave on a happy not of sharing info about MS that you and other may not know.

Please check out this website.
http://www.mississippibelieveit.com/

this clip is about kids from my hometown:

Yes, our roads are paved ... AND we have the best student drivers under the sun. Who’s running the roads in Mississippi? Teens, of course. But our teens are building their own wheels ... and winning titles for it. For the past seven years in a row, the Sundancer Solar Race Team from Houston, MS, has won 1st place in the Open Division of the Dell-Winston School Solar Car Challenge. Launched in 1993, the educational program was designed to teach high school students how to build roadworthy solar cars. And for years, Mississippi’s students have risen to the challenge. (Also, in 2007, a team from Choctaw placed 3rd in the Open Division, and teams from Decatur and Ocean Springs placed 1st and 3rd, respectively, in the Classic Division.) These kids beat out teams from across the U.S. ... and several other countries ... with their ingenuity, determination, intelligence and spirit. Now, that’s a bright reflection on the state of Mississippi!


One clip from the website;(I work in the physiology dept at UMC doing transgenic research (gene therapy). Dr. Hall is my dept head)



Mississippi.
When It Comes to Modern Medicine,
We Wrote The Book.If you listen to “Hollywood,” Mississippi should be the last place to turn for learning anything about medicine. They couldn’t be more wrong. When it comes to modern medicine, Mississippi wrote the book. Literally. While at the University of Mississippi Medical Center, Mississippian Dr. Arthur Guyton wrote the Textbook of Medical Physiology, used by medical students around the world since 1956. The best-selling physiology book ever published, this textbook may very well be the best-selling medical textbook of any kind. UMC physiologist, Dr. John Hall, assisted Dr. Guyton with the ninth and tenth editions of the textbook. Upon Dr. Guyton’s death in 2003, Dr. Hall took over the textbook, thus continuing to help educate the finest future physicians in the world ... through a book written right here in Mississippi. Mississippi. You could say we’re a textbook case for advancing modern medicine.

[maxlharris]

Population helps put stores in, but when you're looking at something like Starbucks:Walmart ratio, theoretically, they should scale to the population (it takes a certain density of people to support a Walmart, as does a Starbucks, though it's a certain density of different people).
There's something else going on, beyond population. Mississippi has the second lowest density of Starbucks in the nation (only Vermont has fewer, but they have a fewer than 10 Walmarts per million people, compared to over 20 per million in MS). Clearly, there's something beyond population going on here. Now, it might be relative lack of wealth. It might be cultural. It might be a combination of both.
http://www.stat.columbia.edu/%7Ecook/movabletype/mlm/consumer5a.png

Now, I don't mean to dump on Southern Culture. But, it is not a culture that has traditionally put a lot of emphasis on education. States like Texas, Mississippi and South Carolina traditionally rank really low in public education outcomes.
Here are your bottom 50 states (DC is 51st, and considering lack of home rule, can't really be considered vis-a-vis priority) in 4th grade reading and math.
40 Arkansas (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87317_year_2003.html) AR (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_4_y ear_2003.html) 214.0 229.0 443.0
41 Oklahoma (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87349_year_2003.html) OK (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_36_ year_2003.html) 214.0 229.0 443.0
42 Tennessee (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87355_year_2003.html) TN (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_42_ year_2003.html) 212.0 228.0 440.0
43 Arizona (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87316_year_2003.html) AZ (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_3_y ear_2003.html) 209.0 229.0 438.0
44 Hawaii (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87324_year_2003.html) HI (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_11_ year_2003.html) 208.0 227.0 435.0
45 Nevada (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87341_year_2003.html) NV (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_28_ year_2003.html) 207.0 228.0 435.0
46 California (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87318_year_2003.html) CA (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_5_y ear_2003.html) 206.0 227.0 433.0
47 Louisiana (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87331_year_2003.html) LA (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_18_ year_2003.html) 205.0 226.0 431.0
48 Alabama (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87314_year_2003.html) AL (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_1_y ear_2003.html) 207.0 223.0 430.0
49 Mississippi (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87337_year_2003.html) MS (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_24_ year_2003.html) 205.0 223.0 428.0[/URL]
50 New Mexico (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID _24_SchID_87337_TName1_read-4g-ave+math-4g-ave.html) NM (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_countybycounty_1_CID_31_ year_2003.html) 203.0 223.0 426.0

Two Blue states (CA, HI), one swing state (NM), and SEVEN red states. 4 of the seven have state schools that play in the SEC, which would be the mark of a traditional Southern state.

Grade 8:
41 Arizona (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Elementary_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID _31_SchID_87344_TName1_read-4g-ave+math-4g-ave.html) AZ (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_3_year_ 2003.html) 255.0 271.0 526.0
42 Tennessee (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/SchID_87406_year_2003.html) TN (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_42_year _2003.html) 258.0 268.0 526.0
43 Arkansas (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_42_ SchID_87406_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) AR (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_4_year_ 2003.html) 258.0 266.0 524.0
44 Nevada (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_4_S chID_87368_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) NV (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_28_year _2003.html) 252.0 268.0 520.0
45 Louisiana (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_28_ SchID_87392_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) LA (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_18_year _2003.html) 253.0 266.0 519.0
46 California (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_18_ SchID_87382_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) CA (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_5_year_ 2003.html) 251.0 267.0 518.0
47 Hawaii (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_5_S chID_87369_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) HI (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_11_year _2003.html) 251.0 266.0 517.0
48 Mississippi (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_11_ SchID_87375_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) MS (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_24_year _2003.html) 255.0 261.0 516.0
49 Alabama (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_24_ SchID_87388_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) AL (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_1_year_ 2003.html) 253.0 262.0 515.0
50 New Mexico (http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_1_S chID_87365_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html) NM (http://www.psk12.com/rating/USindivphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_countybycounty_1_CID_31_year _2003.html) 252.0 263.0 515.0[URL="http://www.psk12.com/rating/UShistogramphp/STATE_US_level_Middle_bycounty_0_year_2003_CID_31_ SchID_87395_TName1_read-8g-ave+math-8g-ave.html"]

Same mix, shuffle the order. DC is 51st again.

Now, we can suggest that this is related to income, which might be true, but since income and education are highly correlated, we might suggest that there is causation. Clusters of well educated people tend to improve the society as a whole, create jobs, and that sort of thing. Clusters of poorly educated people... well.

Now, again, not to dump on Southern Culture, BUT, if they revered education like New England (MA, NH, VT and CT are all top ten, lowest ranked RI at 37, and everyone agrees RI is weird) or the Northern Midwest (MN, the Dakotas and IA in the top 10, lowest MI at 32), even with low income (like IA or VT), they'd rank better.

Now, maybe it's a broken score card. Maybe the SEC states rate Education as a priority (though KY at 30 is the highest rated middle school state with an SEC school... throw North Carolina at 27 if you want a broader definition of the south), but it's not really showing up anywhere, either in the direct data or the peripherals. Is that a problem, I dunno. But when I live in Virginia, Illinois, Los Angeles, or New York, I don't have choice problems. I have cost problems.

I dunno where I'm going with this. If you want something like organic free range turkey, you're going to have to build a cluster of people who want it too. If you can't build the cluster, then maybe there's something to this.

[laughingW]

Interesting thoughts. Max you sound like such an urbanite. Most people spend money on education when they need or want it for getting into a more/better type of work.

I read where Walmart filled the vacuum specifically left by the failure of the mail-order giants, Sears and Wards. Had to be rural people. So it's not so mucy population density, as, critical mass of rural people. When rural people couldn't get inexpensive goods by mail any more, there is Walmart. It does the same thing as the mail-order giants, only it gets its super cheap cost of goods from worldwide labor now, thus allowing them to have local stores.

For successful farmers, where is the value in education. I have relatives who were poor Mennonite farmers - not much cash, not much education, and okay with both situations. Community college and ag degrees were for the amibitious.

Also the culture of the South is different from the get-ahead-via-education one. A bunch of southern states didn't have public education until Reconstruction, when the Reconstruction leaders started it. So I can see where they could still be lagging even this many years later.

[maxlharris]

#1- I am an unapologetic urbanite. You might even say I am an urbanist.
#2- We're not talking pay education here. Above statistics are for public school outcomes on the No Child Left Behind tests.
#3- Let's see. What could be useful to farmers. Budgeting. Finance. Agriculture. New techniques. Reading comprehension. Basic math. So, I dunno from farmers, but I know there's quite a bit of the yield game in corn, livestock, sorghum and soy. And balancing output against loans would seem to be a good educational start point. As to the sustenance farmer. Is there such a thing today?

#4- Reconstruction? That's some 19th century stuff. If we're still not into education after 130 years, I think we're talking something more than a lag.

#5- Laughing, you sound a bit like a person from a culture that doesn't hold much value in education. "Most people spend money on education when they need or want it for getting into a more/better type of work. " Public education is free. But my folks (from Minnesota and Connecticut, two top 10 education states) believed very strongly in education as a worthwhile activity in and of itself. Partially because of the expanded opportunity afforded to the educated, but partially because it's part of the culture.

I might be something of an Internationalist, as well, but what's the point in talking about the South generally lagging the nation and the nation, on average, lagging other countries until college, which half of Americans, and a larger portion of Southern Americans, didn't pursue.

Again, maybe my value judgment is coming through between the lines. But I think it's hard to cry "but income is bad here" if a lot of people don't value education.

[laughingW]

Budgeting. Finance. Agriculture. New techniques. Reading comprehension. Basic math. So, I dunno from farmers, but I know there's quite a bit of the yield game in corn, livestock, sorghum and soy. And balancing output against loans would seem to be a good educational start point.
How much of this can be learned in the hand-me-down way, not requiring attendance at an institution of learning per se?


#5- Laughing, you sound a bit like a person from a culture that doesn't hold much value in education.
Ha. The opposite is true. I am so eddicated I can even grok the mindset where it's not valued as much.


afforded to the educated, but partially because it's part of the culture.
I agree it's a culture thing in the first place to believe that education is important of itself. I don't agree that such a belief is a superior belief.


I think it's hard to cry "but income is bad here" if a lot of people don't value education.
Well that is true and circular. I know folks honestly from generational poverty families that know education is one way out but still seriously don't like that way.

[maxlharris]

How much of this can be learned in the hand-me-down way, not requiring attendance at an institution of learning per se? There's always new. You can't learn new from generational learning. And then there's the degradation of generational learning (AKA why Jesus would be annoyed with a lot of people).


I agree it's a culture thing in the first place to believe that education is important of itself. I don't agree that such a belief is a superior belief. If it's coming across that I think it's a superior belief, I appologize. I do, but I'm making an effort to be open to other cultures, and not pursue the Joe Rogan way ("Other Cultures Suck!")



Well that is true and circular. I know folks honestly from generational poverty families that know education is one way out but still seriously don't like that way.
So, I don't really like working for the government, but it's a steady pay check with good benefits, so I do it anyway. I like the results of the work, even though the work is dead boring. Hell, I hated school until college and only really loved it in grad school.

What's that thing some folks say? Something about doing what you've always done...

[laughingW]

There's always new. You can't learn new from generational learning.
People can learn new things outside of learning institutions and pass it on, word of mouth. By your logic there would be no self-made men! Lots of farmers are canny that way.

I get a whiff from your arguments of the idea that uni credentials guarantee the quality - i.e., the brand guarantees the quality - an East Coast and Northeast belief; where I tend more toward the West and South's self-made credo, where you look to quality to guarantee the brand.


And then there's the degradation of generational learning (AKA why Jesus would be annoyed with a lot of people).
Agree with this one, lol

[Omlette]

People can learn new things outside of learning institutions and pass it on, word of mouth. By your logic there would be no self-made men! Lots of farmers are canny that way.

I get a whiff from your arguments of the idea that uni credentials guarantee the quality - i.e., the brand guarantees the quality - an East Coast and Northeast belief; where I tend more toward the West and South's self-made credo, where you look to quality to guarantee the brand.


Agree with this one, lol

So true.

There is a man from my hometown that has only an 8th grade education. He is 60-65 yrs old. He was bringing in over 2million/yr profit 10 years ago. His business has not slacked off and is going strong. I know that his oldest daughter (my age) went to college. She is a very successful insurance agent now. I don't know if she graduated. I don't know if his son went to college or not. He is taking over the family business, plus he is a farmer. The youngest got her cosmetology licsense and is now a realtor. They always encouraged education in their family even though he did not have one.

The lady that does the animal husbandry for my mice has a high school degree, but she was brought up in a family that is mostly not educated. Her mom did her best to make sure that she got the basics. My coworker's children are all educated.

I have a master's degree, but because I work for the University of MS and not Vanderbilt, I make about 1/2 of what I could make. I am the only one of my siblings that have a higher ed degree. They all went to college for a little while, but started their own business. Have been successful. I have the college degree and make the least amount of money. My niece and nephew are working on their degrees.

One note on farmers: they can not predict whether a year will produce a good crop. This spring/early summer the MS delta (not the area at the mouth of the river, but a large portion of hte west side of the state) was under water. The river flooded which caused many of the rivers that run into it to flood. Many crops were lost.

I can see where you would feel that people in the south do not revere education like people up north, but I feel that we do a lot more than people realize. At the same time, there are the people (poor trash or long line of severely uneducated) that are brought up believing that their only purpose on the eart is to breed and draw welfare checks. I hate that, but it is true. I honestly believe that many kids want to learn and those that are encouraged at home, do learn.

I, also, think that all of the testing that the schools have to do to keep accreditation is crazy. Many teachers feel frazzled and that they can not properly teach the children for worrying about them getting only what they need to know for the test. Plus, our teacher's pay here is crap. They are lucky to make 30K.

I know I sound like i am making excuses. I'm not. I am just a die hard, born true southern girl. I love the south. I love the fresh air and open fields. I do hate that we get a bad rap. People think we are stupid, which we aren't. I do hate that we don't get a lot of good stores here, but I think a lot of it has to do with money and population. Without population, there is not industry. Somewhere in America, crops must be grown. People that do get good educations usually end up going somewhere else to make money because it is not here for us to make. Tax revenues are hurting this state right now something terrible and jobs are going to get cut because of it. It is a sad situation.

Okay, I will quit rambling.

[maxlharris]

People can learn new things outside of learning institutions and pass it on, word of mouth. By your logic there would be no self-made men! Lots of farmers are canny that way.
Please, continue to extend my arguments to whereever you feel they ought to go. By your logic, there is no value to a formal education, since everything can be passed down and around informally. Enjoy that, Laughing? If you did, please continue to extend my thoughts in any direction you please.

So, you have hand me down knowledge, which is a little like inbreeding. If you never get off the farm and only learn what your dad taught you, there you are. If you maybe read a book, or talk to other people, it's like interbreeding. It's all about clusters. And exchanges. It's not all about formal education, though I see a lot of value in the thought process a lot of people get from college. But then again, maybe formal education isn't for everyone.


I get a whiff from your arguments of the idea that uni credentials guarantee the quality - i.e., the brand guarantees the quality - an East Coast and Northeast belief; where I tend more toward the West and South's self-made credo, where you look to quality to guarantee the brand.

Keep sniffing. You're not close. Remember back when I said, "Education is an investment in time and soul. You get back roughly proportional to what you put in." If you go to Harvard and pull gentleman's C's, I don't think you got the same value as even a diligent self made person, though you will probably be more likely to be elected president or have a large salary (not that that's important, although we were, nominally talking about cycles of poverty).

Again, please invest my comments with whatever spin you like. I enjoy seeing it.

[Omlette]

Oh, Max, I just thought about something else.

Mississippi State have a great veterinary program. looking at state board test scores, one might would think that those new graduates are not prepared and will make horrible vets.

A few years ago while I was working at the vet school with the students, I had a clinical professor tell me a nice piece of info. He has a practice in NY. He came down to MSU to do some research and clinical/teaching work. At MSU, students start doiing surgery in the 2nd year. Other schools do not do this. At that time, the school taught on a problem base learning program. They would be presented a case and have to do everything that a vet would do in his office.

Anyway, this vet (from NY) and I were talking about our program. He said that he had been very pleasantly surprised when he got down here and started working with the students. Back at his clinic, he had hired a newly board certified vet. He asked the guy to spay a dog. The new vet did NOT come from MSU. He said that he had never done one, but that he had observed. It took him 2 hours to do the surgery. This surgery should be 30 minutes max. He had very little hands on experience at actually doing anything.

MSU students start doing surgeries in 2nd year, do full clinics in the 3rd year and intern/extern in their 4th year. The Dr. from NY told me that he believed the MSU students to be the most prepared and apt vets straight out of school. They were taught to diagnose, use technology and books to find the issues, without having every single word pounded into their head. Then they were taught to work.

[laughingW]

By your logic, there is no value to a formal education, since everything can be passed down and around informally.
posit - A = people can learn outside of instititions
posit - B = people can learn from institutions

They can both be of value. There is no reason why A means B is not true.


So, you have hand me down knowledge, which is a little like inbreeding. If you never get off the farm and only learn what your dad taught you, there you are. If you maybe read a book, or talk to other people, it's like interbreeding. It's all about clusters. And exchanges.
Oh my I can see why Omlette gets sick of assumptions about people in farming areas like MS; such as, no formal education = never get off the farm and learn only from your dad. In real life there are lots of opportunities for the interbreeding. There is , no formal education = keep informed via extension agent, the market, govt changes re subsidies, watch innovation and competition via the neighboring producers.


But then again, maybe formal education isn't for everyone.
All I was sayin.

[maxlharris]

Oh, Max, I just thought about something else.

Mississippi State have a great veterinary program. looking at state board test scores, one might would think that those new graduates are not prepared and will make horrible vets.
Since 50% of Americans never sniff a college, I didn't think to look at college data. Since the average amount of education in MS is about 12.25 years, again, the el-hi looked the place to explain educational quality. I suppose I could do research on budgeting, but that's fairly time intensive.

I wouldn't make assumptions about anyone's vet ability without looking at the school first. You might suspect that graduates of the George Warren Brown school of Social Work at Washington University in St. Louis because they are coming from a ritzy school and couldn't possibly relate. Of course, GWB is the top school in the field, producing a lot of really quality social workers, both macro and micro.


A few years ago while I was working at the vet school with the students, I had a clinical professor tell me a nice piece of info. He has a practice in NY. He came down to MSU to do some research and clinical/teaching work. At MSU, students start doiing surgery in the 2nd year. Other schools do not do this. At that time, the school taught on a problem base learning program. They would be presented a case and have to do everything that a vet would do in his office.

Anyway, this vet (from NY) and I were talking about our program. He said that he had been very pleasantly surprised when he got down here and started working with the students. Back at his clinic, he had hired a newly board certified vet. He asked the guy to spay a dog. The new vet did NOT come from MSU. He said that he had never done one, but that he had observed. It took him 2 hours to do the surgery. This surgery should be 30 minutes max. He had very little hands on experience at actually doing anything.

MSU students start doing surgeries in 2nd year, do full clinics in the 3rd year and intern/extern in their 4th year. The Dr. from NY told me that he believed the MSU students to be the most prepared and apt vets straight out of school. They were taught to diagnose, use technology and books to find the issues, without having every single word pounded into their head. Then they were taught to work.
A nice story, but really, one of those nice stories that goes against something like a mountain of evidence against (formal) education as a valued commodity. But, talking about it here doesn't make it better or worse, doesn't help the income of the state (generally correlated with more education) and isn't liable to change any values. So, I'm officially done.

[Omlette]

Back to the topic of the thread:

SlimFast Low Carb - 2 ecc - is very good in the creamy vanilla. Nice and thick.

[maxlharris]

Protein content of said beverage?

20g. Not bad if you have a low daily protein requirement, on the order of 80 or so.
Not much in the way of micronutrition. But, if you're taking a multi, should be fine.

[Omlette]

Protein content of said beverage?

20g. Not bad if you have a low daily protein requirement, on the order of 80 or so.
Not much in the way of micronutrition. But, if you're taking a multi, should be fine.

I take a multi. I also use this to help up my protein most of the time instead of by itself. There have been times that I have drank only this for dinner, but I have already met my protein requirement (probably passed it) for the day.

[Taterhead]

I recently got the Premium Nutrition brand at Costco--fabulous. creamy and delish--they only had chocolate ( sorry Max) 30 gr protein and 2 grams carb. Sucralose and A-K as sweeteners. and no soy! they were $23--for 18 not bad.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU!!!!. I just tried this brand for the first time today and they taste just like chocolate milk, no chemical taste like some have. I have tried the ones from trader joes, slimfast lowcarb and EAS and these are hands down the best flavor.

Debbie....