PCOS information and discussion

[avnndd]

Just a quick note...I'll write more later.

My wife had her Protein Power baby on Wednesday. She was diagnosed with gestational diabetes about 6 weeks before delivery...she followed Maintenance levels and the baby was 7 pounds 2 ounces, with excellent blood sugar levels after he was born.

Plus, she had been diagnosed with PCOS several years ago, had all the classic symptoms, even saw the ultrasound of her ovaries that showed all of the cysts....after her delivery, she ended up with a ruptured uterus that required a hysterectomy (not at all related to anything...just a flukey thing), and the doctor commented on how small her ovaries looked...not at all like someone with PCOS, he said...what do you all think? Was it a misdiagnosis? Not likely with the ultrasound evidence...I'm voting for a recovery due in large part to low-carb eating. A lot of her other PCOS indicators have lessened as well, including excess body hair.

Anyway, spread the word...she is wanting to share her experience with any other women who have experienced apparent infertility due to PCOS...low-carbing really worked for us!

[gitfiddle]

I had to stop by when I saw your post, Aaron. Too bad about the complications and I hope she's feeling comfortable. I just want to say that I am also PCOS and PP has lessened all my obvious symptoms as well. In fact, I've read that low-carb is about the only way that PCOS people lose weight. I was low-carbing when I became pregnant and my ob/gyn was a bit surprised. :eek: That would explain it! Please tell Mama T that I'm sharing her joy.

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Administration Note:
Most of these posts originally appeared in the thread PP Pregnancy (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115). Since PCOS is a condition that affects many things besides getting pregnant, and there are women diagnosed with PCOS who are not interested in conceiving, the PCOS discussion was moved into its own discussion here. I think all of the posts but one made the transition successfully. Gitfiddle, I've added these links to reference information and treatment options to your post, so that readers won't have to scroll through the discussion to find them. -- Gaelen
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Poly-Cystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) can affect women of child-bearing age, from any time between mid-to-late teens to the onset of menopause. PCOS is estimated to affect between 6% and 15% of women of child-bearing age, and while many women have visible/measureable signs of the syndrome, others have no symptoms at all.

PCOS can affect weight loss, fertility, degree of insulin resistance and emotional state/level of depression. There are several approaches to treatment, but there is no documented cure for PCOS at this time. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that many of the overt signs of the syndrome can be been successfully controlled or decreased by medications, diet, and exercise. Various diets are recommended by different endocrinologists, from the standard food guide pyramid to low carbing. There is anecdotal evidence that a diet that addresses insulin resistance (for instance, a controlled carb eating program like Protein Power) can relieve many of the measurable signs of PCOS.

This discussion is not intended to replace medical care provided by a licensed healthcare professional.
Unless references are linked within the post, the reader should assume that posters here are lay people sharing personal stories and anecdotes about PCOS.

Posters, please do not present your personal beliefs and anecdotes as medical facts that apply to every woman with PCOS.
Readers, please remember that when you're reading personal stories, your mileage may vary.

Here is a list of links to web resources about PCOS:
PolyCystic Ovarian Syndrome Association (http://www.pcosupport.org/)
SoulCysters (http://www.soulcysters.com/) main website
SoulCysters (http://www.soulcysters.net/) bulletin board
Poly-Cystic Ovary Syndrome (http://familydoctor.org/620.xml) explanation of the syndrome by www.familydoctor.org
PCOS FAQ (http://www.4woman.gov/faq/pcos.htm) from the National Women's Health Information Center
Explanation of PCOS (http://www.webmd.com/hw/womens_conditions/tw9104.asp) by WebMD
Explanation of lab tests which can help pinpoint PCOS (http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/conditions/pcos.html) from Lab Tests Online
Current Medical Research on PCOS (http://www.midwivesofwa.org/pcos.htm) provided by Washington State Midwives Assn.
PCOS 101 (http://www.pcosupport.org/medical/whatis.php)
Treatment Options for PCOS (http://www.ivf.com/pcostreat.html) from www.ivf.com
PCOS Treatment Options (http://www.hormone.org/learn/pcos_3.html) from The Hormone Foundation
PCOS treatment options (http://www.womentowomen.com/insulinresistance/pcos.asp?id=2&campaignno=pcos&keywords=treatment+pcos) from Women to Women

Please feel free to share other links that may be helpful, include reference information in your posts, and discuss your personal experiences with PCOS. Again, remember, when you're reading someone else's personal experience with PCOS, your own mileage may vary. ;)

Gaelen
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[avnndd]

Isn't it amazing?? Who would think that something so SIMPLE as low-carbing could make such a huge difference?

[gitfiddle]

I was there twenty some years ago. Why was I so stupid as to have not hung on to it? No support, that's why. Aaron, this is my lifeline.

[avnndd]

Trust me (and my wife)...lowcarbing is not bad for a pregnant woman.

My wife was PCOS diagnosed many years ago...we saw the ultrasounds of her ovaries and everything.

With PPing, she got pregnant w/o clomid, and gained only about 15 pounds TOTAL, even though she was diagnosed as gestational diabetic. The baby (Micaiah) weighed 7 lbs., 2 oz....does that sound like a diabetic baby to you?? Now, just 3 WEEKS after the birth, she is back to her prepregnancy weight, and BREASTFEEDING while leveling back down to a lower low-carb regime (while pregnant, she was at more of a maintenance level, but not more than that).

So, if any of your OB/GYNs tell you it just won't work, have 'em give us a call! Oh, and my wife's ovaries now? Her NEW doctor said they were NOT PCOS, and actually looked a little smallish to him! Proof? Oh, yeah.

[kitkat]

Well, that is definitely encouraging. :D I was diagnosed with PCOS too, several years ago, and we underwent IUI treatments in order to conceive our daughter. So, after being on PP for two months, you can imagine our surprise when the home pg test showed "positive". Seriously, we were stunned. I am hoping to avoid the 'gestational diabetes' this go-around, and plan to infuse my diet with lots of protein, veggies and whole grains. Did anyone notice that they lost weight doing PP while pregnant? As I mentioned last week, I lost a pound. This week, I am down two more. I am not trying to lose weight, and am eating just as much as before...in fact, I am eating a few more healthy carbs to balance my diet.

[avnndd]

My wife lost a little weight at the beginning, too. We know without a doubt that the lower-carb eating (and God, of course) are responsible for the pregnancy.

[Gaelen]

We know without a doubt that the lower-carb eating (and God, of course) are responsible for the pregnancy.

Aaron, with all due respect, your experience is anecdotal, not scientific, and while you can base a theory on it and investigate that theory, basing a statement like that on whatever you may feel isn't very reliable. Low carb eating is a science, and it's very difficult to prove a scientific theory like 'low carb helps pregnancy in women with prior difficult pregnancies/conception difficulties" in a straight line as though X is responsible for Y.

It's also worth mentioning that when a diet only recently undertaken (in the context of someone's entire lifelong eating habits) is put up against a situation like difficulty conceiving or carrying a baby to term, it's a big stretch to say diet is the principal thing responsible for changing the health situation. Successful conception and pregnancy are affected by many factors besides diet. Does fixing diet help? Probably...but nothing (including your personal convictions) proves it's a cure all. Even doctors and scientists studying the situation in controlled circumstances wouldn't be able to say 'without a doubt' unless they did a lot more research and studied a lot more people than your personal study of one.

Your statement is comparable to me saying that I 'know without a doubt' that eating low carb prior to my cancer diagnosis


caused my cancer (no, it probably didn't--but there are lots of people and even some studies that might indicate it did)
made me strong enough to fight my cancer long past the point where I was supposed to be alive (anecdotal...maybe it did, maybe it didn't...and the studies that prove sugar needs to be avoided aren't big enough to be definitive yet.)
is helping me recover from the two surgeries I've had in the last 13 months (again, anecdotal...maybe it did, maybe it didn't)


Your personal convictions aside, it's simply not possible for you to 'know without a doubt' the extent that lower-carb eating played in your wife's recent pregnancy and successful delivery. Low carb may have seemed to have helped, but it's not the only environmental factor that your wife experienced in the last several years, and ALL of those environmental factors likely did something to contribute or conflict with whether she was able to get pregnant. In any case, whether they helped or hindered would need to be ruled out, and you haven't done that.

While we have successes, it's important to recognize that most people aren't doctors or scientists, and don't play doctors or scientists on TV either. ;) So if we are going to make statements, as laymen, we should at least mention that this is our own personal experience, and that the experience has no scientific backup. In other words, while something worked for an individual, YMMV.

[avnndd]

OK, Gaelen...I get your point...how about I change it to, "I have formed a strong hypothesis..."

I would go more into detail, but just don't have time. ;-)

[Nean]

Many of the PCOS websites carry a strong warning to start birthcontrol before or with your lowcarb diet unless you are seeking to become pregnant. Pretty strong anticdotal correlations do crop up. ;)

[kitkat]

Well, I am of the opinion "If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got". Infertility science is not exact either, it is based on precendents. Proceedures, tests, surgeries are recommended and implemented under the idea of "this has worked for 90% of the population with this diagnoses, therefore it 'should' work for this person too". Nothing is exact...at least, I haven't found anything yet. Well, except for death and taxes. :L

What I do know (without a doubt) ;)...prior to PP, I experienced anovulation, amenorrhea, insulin resistance and weight gain due to PCOS. I lost 67lbs prior to my first pregnancy, doing Weight Watchers (low fat/high carb), however I still could not conceive. After 2.5 years of trying, we visited a RE and he performed a battery of tests. Thankfully, we were able to pinpoint EXACTLY why I could not conceive. Undergoing IUI was our ONLY option, in order to bypass the cause of our infertility. Fastforward to this year. A friend advised me to try PP, and she has known it to be very succesful managing or reversing PCOS. So, I did. Upon starting PP, I began menustrating, ovulating and losing weight. Now, after being told that IUI was my only option for conceiving children, I find myself pregnant...without even trying. Coincidence? Maybe. However, I can promise you that ANY MD will recommend low carb eating to a woman with PCOS...they know it is the surefire way to combat the insulin resistance commonly associated with PCOS. In fact, at this point in time, low carb eating is the ONLY thing that a woman with PCOS can do to directly impact her problem. I am of the population that think it is more than a coincidence, and happily embrace the 'theory' of PP. :P

[avnndd]

Kit, sounds like YOU have also formed a hypothesis... ;-)

[kitkat]

Apparently, I have. :L And, I am happy to share it with anyone who will listen too.

[realruth]

I too am (without a doubt) of the opinion that PP has helped with my daughter being able to conceive...

She had tried for 7 yrs.....nothing happening...had run through a whole battery of tests....nothing serious showed up.

She began PP after seeing my health benefits...4 months later was pregnant....did modified PP throughout and continued whilst breastfeeding,,,baby now 1 yr,,,,,,decided to try again last month to conceive......looks like it worked :) just waiting for official confirmation.

[Gaelen]

Originally Posted by kitkat
Well, I am of the opinion "If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got". Infertility science is not exact either, it is based on precendents. Proceedures, tests, surgeries are recommended and implemented under the idea of "this has worked for 90% of the population with this diagnoses, therefore it 'should' work for this person too". Nothing is exact...at least, I haven't found anything yet. Well, except for death and taxes. :L

I agree, KitKat. I spent 14 years actively working as a pharmaceutical research technologist, testing theories about how diseases function in the human body, and which drugs worked (and didn't), what dosages were effective and which ones were toxic, how drugs affected entire in vivo systems vs. the in vitro systems that brought them into the spotlight. More often than not, the studies I ran provided the scientific backup that disproved theories--but better I disprove them in animal systems than that I send them to human clinic without weeding out as many bad actors as possible. For the last five years, I've evaluated study reports as part of my new responsibilities in training, software systems development/support and quality. As part of that, I review both animal and human clinical data. I am a scientist, with a lot of experience...but most of the time when I'm speaking on these forums, I'm relating anecdotal experience, and that kind of experience doesn't have a 90% effectiveness track record. Individual results will vary. No guarantees. Relating a personal story as a guarantee of results is not what I consider responsible or ethical, but I answer to higher standards in my job, and I set the standards bar even higher in situations like this where we only know what people type, not whether that's entirely accurate or has left anything out.

My current on-going experimental study is an informal, life-or-death personal clinical non-controlled study of one, in an evolving treatment area where the numbers of patients are too small to consider any results definitive. There's a lot of collateral data, and I have a few hypotheses, but honestly, I can only speak to what's happening to me and the list of known and reported effects the few others who've experienced my treatment have shared. It's ALL anecdotal at this point. I'm going to end up in an oncology paper someday, maybe even this year...but my results will only be as a pointer to a treatment direction that should be pursued because it appears to work better than anything else with the few people who can stay healthy long enough to make it work. It won't be a definitive recommendation--there ARE no definitive recommendations.

Both of my oncologists will tell me and anyone else who asks that there these are the current options, but there are no answers and no clear treatment choices and no guarantees at this stage of my disease. To make my treatment decisions, I have to go on the published results (skimpy), the anecdotal evidence (even more skimpy and definitely not consistent), and follow my gut. My odds would be better in Vegas.

I know first-hand that science isn't perfect (that's why chasing down new theories makes it so exciting.) But I also know that my science experience in controlled high-number studies is one thing, on which I have no trouble speaking definitely or listening to others do so--and my personal results are simply anecdotal. Are they compelling? Yes. Will they sway someone who's considering this treatment? Hell, yes...the only other options are death and taxes, so people in my condition will generally try anything up to a point. But the only thing other people in similarly non-controlled situations with anecdotal results similar to my own tells me is that there's material there to pursue a more controlled study. My results are still a YMMV thing, and I always aim to make that clear because I don't post them as a scientist, I post them as a patient/survivor.

Originally posted by KitKat:
Now, after being told that IUI was my only option for conceiving children, I find myself pregnant...without even trying. Coincidence? Maybe. However, I can promise you that ANY MD will recommend low carb eating to a woman with PCOS...they know it is the surefire way to combat the insulin resistance commonly associated with PCOS. In fact, at this point in time, low carb eating is the ONLY thing that a woman with PCOS can do to directly impact her problem. I am of the population that think it is more than a coincidence, and happily embrace the 'theory' of PP. :P

KitKat, I didn't say your results were a coincidence. I said diet may not be the principal thing or the only thing that changed in your system that resulted in pregnancy; it is equally possible that it's part of a combination of things that resulted in your ability to conceive. I also didn't say that PP was a 'theory' -- I said that no one can know, without a doubt, that low carbing for a relatively brief period of time in the perspective of an entire life of other eating habits is the principal reason that a woman was able to conceive and carry a baby to term. PP is a science, low carbing is a science--not an unproven theory--the Drs. Eades and other bariatric researchers have seen to that by actually doing research that follows more than one person and more than one effect on more than one health condition. I realize that there's a lot of anecdotal support that eating low carb can help women with PCOS...but nothing is 'without a doubt' --i.e., guaranteed, works for everybody -- in science, in low carbing, in anything except, as you point out, death and taxes. ;)

I have a friend whose 18 year old daughter was conceived after she'd been told that her PCOS and uterine fibroids would prevent conceiving a second child, although they tried for another baby for 7 years after her son was born, and did some fertility treatments as a last resort. She was also working a very high-stress job as the director of a big, non-profit day care center (up to 200+ kids per day, plus more enrolled in after-school programs) during those whole seven years. Trust me, she didn't change her diet...in fact, when she was offered a chance to be the supervising pastry chef at an expanding bakery/deli, she left the day care center to spend time at her dream job. It was a cut in pay and a lot of hard, physical work...but you know what? Even being pastry chef at a busy bakery/deli was, for her, exponentially less or maybe differently stressful than running that day care center.

Within a year of changing jobs, without trying and without dietary changes (except to maybe eat MORE carbs!), she conceived her daughter without even trying. They literally weren't using protection because she'd been told conception would never happen...and there are a lot of anecdotal stories about people who stopped worrying about 'trying' or stopped taking precautions because they were told they couldn't conceive...and now have the baby(s) to disprove that advice. Coincidence, or a result of the lowered stress which likely consistently lowered cortisol levels? My friend was still insulin resistant, still had PCOS at conception...although less so than in her day care center days. Did reduced stress also reduce her degree of PCOS and allow her to conceive? Maybe...reducing stress levels and cortisol levels has a demonstrable/provable effect on many health issues, including PCOS. So as I scientist, I sure wouldn't rule that out.

As for "ANY MD recommending low carb eating to a woman with PCOS," well...in a perfect world. But just as science isn't perfect, neither is the medical community--and neither is Protein Power. The only absolute I can say about science, the medical community and Protein Power is that none of them works for everyone. As someone who used to frequent the old board often reminded people, "this is a way of eating, not a religion."

Low carb eating isn't a magic bullet, it's not the way to either heaven or hell, it doesn't work for every one or every illness every time. It's a personal choice which can be very successful, but it's not a cure-all. It has great potential, and it should IMO always be attempted, but it may not help or completely fix every health issue presented. As for the behavior of "ANY MD," that's simply not predictable enough to support your statement...if it were, there'd be little point in switching doctors to get a more informed opinion on anything. No need to stick out your tongue ( :P ); my comments are just meant as a reality check. This is a forum to discuss medical issues, but when providing anecdotal results during that discussion, we do need to remember to indicate that while something may have worked for us, there are no guarantees and it's not 'without a doubt' that what we did will work for every other person who reads the story.

[choubear]

Hi all!

I was going to post here anyway b/c I too boast one of the most gorgeous PP babies you can imagine ever seeing! ;) Cat was born after 9.5 months of PP eating, supplemented in the 3rd trimester with some black beans and a bit more fruit - basically I ate "maintenance" and she's not only perfect, she's knocking the tops off the charts for intellectual development. Go PP!

I also confess to being the "friend" that recommended PP to kitkat -- and I told her when I did so that I was personally aware of four people with PCOS diagnosis who conceived without effort after going on a controlled carb ADEQUATE PROTEIN diet. (Truly, I think this is REALLY the key!!) What do you know, now I can say that I know FIVE! :P Aand I wasn't even counting the folks here, so make that six (mama T) and a half (Ruth's daughter apparently didn't have a PCOS diagnosis?)

Gaelen, I am sure that lowering cortisol (and, incidently, insulin) would also help achieve conception, that makes sense, it is going at the same issue in a different way. I actually find that more persuasive evidence these are the factors taht are the key for healthy conception/pregnancy, not the reverse. It's achieving the same thing, the same way.

I'm hardly religious about PP, but the anecdotal evidence is sufficiently strong enough for me to have recommended it to a friend (who then saw the same, replicable result). I agree that we mustn't mislead visitors about where our beliefs come from, but I don't think having a strong belief that PP works to resolve PCOS issues is unscientific. Or perhaps I just don't see our opinions (clearly those of laypersons) as being held to the same standards as scientists?

In any case, (dare I say it?) I believe that someone with PCOS stands a good shot of resolving the problem if they are diligent about their carbs and eat adequate protein. PRetty much any treating endocrinologist agrees with at least the former, based on actual studies.

Just my (anecdotal, biased by experience, unscientific) 2 cents! :)

[kitkat]

Gaelen~I am sorry you have misinterpreted my message. I have no desire to debate you on this topic, and I am afraid this situation will continue to deteriorate if I reply. Thank you for your insight.

[Gaelen]

Gaelen, I am sure that lowering cortisol (and, incidently, insulin) would also help achieve conception, that makes sense, it is going at the same issue in a different way. I actually find that more persuasive evidence these are the factors taht are the key for healthy conception/pregnancy, not the reverse. It's achieving the same thing, the same way.

I'm hardly religious about PP, but the anecdotal evidence is sufficiently strong enough for me to have recommended it to a friend (who then saw the same, replicable result). I agree that we mustn't mislead visitors about where our beliefs come from, but I don't think having a strong belief that PP works to resolve PCOS issues is unscientific. Or perhaps I just don't see our opinions (clearly those of laypersons) as being held to the same standards as scientists? In any case, (dare I say it?) I believe that someone with PCOS stands a good shot of resolving the problem if they are diligent about their carbs and eat adequate protein. PRetty much any treating endocrinologist agrees with at least the former, based on actual studies. Just my (anecdotal, biased by experience, unscientific) 2 cents! :)

Choubear, of course you should 'dare to say' your opinions, and so should everyone else, as long as those opinions respect the opinons of everyone else, and it's obvious that they're your opinions, anecdotes from your personal experience, and not some documented and proven method backed up by scientific research on which everyone can rely for success. That's what forums like this are all about.

I agree that the anecdotal experiences of many women with PCOS who low carb properly and improve their fertility profiles by doing so is compelling...but my point was that PCOS --> infertility --> low carbing --> pregnancy isn't, for anyone, the straight line I just drew--nor is it the straight line that Aaron's post prompting my initial comment and others supporting that post drew. Infertility is a multi-focal condition, and many things affect its reversal. So is PCOS. Aaron's posts are...no intention to offend here, just pointing out the obvious..second hand information from an observe, not first hand from the person who actually followed the diet. An interpretation of someone close to that person is still second hand information. No one reading these boards has any evidence from posts that appear here that what Aaron says were his wife's eating habits in fact were her eating habits, for how long and to what extent.

We do know a lot about what Aaron eats...and there is anecdotal evidence that HIS low carbing could have corrected an underlying fertility issue on his end that enabled conception (again, infertility is not a single-focus problem.) But interestingly, Aaron isn't speaking about the pregnancy and new baby in those terms; perhaps he hasn't considered that possibility. In any case, a woman who discusses what she eats and how it affected her pregnancy carries a little more weight, IMO, than someone reporting what someone else ate/eats and her results. Lay people reporting strong personal convictions aren't reporting scientific research; they're reporting personal experience and opinions. That's fine if they indicate that, and fine to share those anecdotal experiences--but it's blurring the informtion line if they don't make sure people understand it's a personal experience, not scientific fact. And I think even a dictionary distinguishes between scientific provable facts and a strong personal belief. One requires proof that meets a lot of criteria. The other requires no proof at all, or only personal experience, or lots of proof that incited someone to try the thing that created the strong personal belief...in other words, beliefs aren't necessarily quantifiable, but science by its nature has to be.

IMO, that's a line we should all try to respect, like respecting copyrights in the recipe section. ;) Why? Well, a lot of people go to the 'net seeking confirmation and affirmation of information they've heard, and it's very hard to sort out the scientific fact from the personal anecdotes when the posters blur or ignore that line. Mileage may vary, and posts of personal experience need to be clear about that or they blur a line which this forum in all of the incarnations the Drs. Eades have sponsored tries to keep sharply drawn. That's the standard I've applied to all kinds of claims that appear on forums for fifteen years, whether the poster is a lay person or not, whether the info is for my own use or because it's providing discussion and references for a forum where I participate/moderate.

I'm all about people expressing their opinions--heck, I'm expressing mine right now. The more the merrier--or at least, the more interesting. :) The problem is that opinions are like mouths--everybody's got one, and some are more effective than others. IMO, we have a responsibility to others seeking information about Protein Power and pregnancy not to preach our successes to them as reported science with any guarantee that they will work for everyone. We need to be careful to express personal experiences and anecdotes as our own results. I was glad to see Thedabara start this topic, and glad to see the input of other women who've actually experienced pregnancy, sharing what about following Protein Power helped the courses of their pregnancy. I'm glad to see the discussion continue, and although PCOS is a nice sidebar, it does take us a bit off the course of how to follow a low carb diet during pregnancy...since the anecdotal experiences are speaking more to how people were able to GET pregnant, not how to follow the plan WHILE pregnant. It might even be appropriate to discuss PCOS issues (because they don't all involve getting pregnant), in thread devoted to PCOS.

I try very hard not to misinterpret posts, but I'm human, too. So if anyone feels I've misinterpreted what appear to me to have been statements of personal experiences presented as universally applicable facts without qualifications that these were anecdotes, please show me how I've misinterpreted your words, so I don't do it again. I've been learning new ways of interpreting e-language nearly every day for the last fifteen years, and I hope today won't be any different. ;)

[choubear]

Well, I'm game! I didn't read anything more than personal experience into Aaron's post since he gave his reasons for having reached his conclusion (my wife and our experience, rather than "a study" or anything that purported to be other than anecdotal). My field of inquiry was psychology, the softest of sciences ;) where we are allowed a Pierson's coefficient of .05 or higher because us humans are such unpredictable critters, and any psych study will show you that most of us are convinced by anecdotal evidence. Even studies, to the layperson, are presented as such: "They took x people who had y symptoms, and fed them..." if we want them to be convincing.

I wouldn't want anyone confused by this thread into thinking that there was some "guarantee" of pg with PP, and if it sounded that way to you, it may have sounded that way to others, so I am glad you "fixed" it.

I do think that PCOS/infertility relates to the PP pregnancy - as I am guilty of saying to kitkat when she first found out she was pg, your body clearly seems to "work better" on LC, and if PP got you pregnant (so to speak ;)) how wrong can it be to follow for a pregnancy?

That said, have I told you how cute my daughter turned out? :) PP baby and all! :D

[Gaelen]

I wouldn't want anyone confused by this thread into thinking that there was some "guarantee" of pg with PP, and if it sounded that way to you, it may have sounded that way to others, so I am glad you "fixed" it.

Choubear, just to be clear...you wrote this before I 'fixed' anything by separating the threads. ;) But you're right...my concern all along has been to eliminate possible confusion about any 'guarantees' or 'without a doubt' recommendations that low carbing will definitely enable a woman with PCOS to get pregnant. Nothing medical is that certain; neither fertility issues nor PCOS are single-focused cause-effect conditions.

PCOS is a syndrome that has many effects and body symptoms, and it deserves its own subject line separate from how to low-carb while pregnant--if only because not every woman with PCOS necessarily wants to get pregnant.

OTOH, most pregnant women don't have PCOS, and may only be looking for tips to manage their pregnancies while sticking to a controlled carb/adequate protein eating plan.

The two threads are linked, for those people who want to follow both discussions, but separated for those people who only are interested in one or the other. Hope this, along with the references and links I added to the top post, helps make both discussions a more effective resource for everyone.

[avnndd]

Pat, first I want to say that I am more than a little offended by what you said about my comments. My wife and I have been married almost 18 years, and evidently you don't realize that when I say something about her, it's the truth. Why would I make things up? Oh, I guess maybe there are people on this board that do that...but I'm not one. I KNOW how she ate before...and I KNOW how she eats now. I'm her husband.

Second, your insinuation that perhaps my sperm has changed somehow, causing her to get pregnant...not the case. We've had it checked many times over the past 12-15 years just to be sure. And it was always ok. Of course, I don't have the lab reports to prove it, but it IS the truth.

And, lastly, I know that not all PCOS women want to get pregnant...but my wife did, and so do many PCOS women...and it is very frustrating to them.

Now, I've known you, Pat, for several years. I know that you are not afraid to express your opinion, and as a moderator, your opinion will prevail. But I think you should be very careful to question a person's veracity without substantiation.

And that's all I'm going to say about it! Have a great day!

[Gaelen]

Aaron, I understood that you might not take my comments without offense. That's why I posted that I wasn't making my comments with the intent to offend, but to clarify things that might not be obvious to someone who doesn't know the people who post here:


Infertility is a multi-focal condition, and many things affect its reversal. So is PCOS. Aaron's posts are...no intention to offend here, just pointing out the obvious..second hand information from an observe, not first hand from the person who actually followed the diet. An interpretation of someone close to that person is still second hand information. No one reading these boards has any evidence from posts that appear here that what Aaron says were his wife's eating habits in fact were her eating habits, for how long and to what extent.

The bottom line is that it doesn't really matter that I've read your posts for a couple years, or that you've read mine...there are an awful lot of people who read this board who are not familiar with either of us. Sometimes people who do post regularly forget that the community of active posters aren't the only people who read these boards. What anyone knows about any of us may be limited to what they can see on this board, what's been posted in the last six weeks. IMO, in order for us to expect people to accept what we write when they don't have anything more to go on than what they can see from this board's posts, we need to carefully qualify what we say. We especially need to do this when we take the responsibility of speaking for someone else. We especially need to do this when we make statements that low carbing appears to have dramatically improved a medical condition while presenting only our own experience as evidence. We can't assume that everyone reading here knows that "when I say X," it's automatically true. I don't apply that standard selectively, Aaron; I apply it to everyone--including myself. ;)

As for insinuations...I repeat, PCOS and infertility are both multi-focal conditions. Many things can affect both conditions, and nothing can be dismissed out of hand or given full credit all by itself. In the case of infertility, improving the overall health of BOTH partners can synergistically improve the couple's chances of conceiving, but improving one partner's overall health isn't always enough to produce a pregnancy. The effects of health improvement on BOTH partners is just another health focus to consider...and suggesting that is neither an insinuation nor an insult. ;) Overall health improvement is something every couple should pursue in the process of trying to conceive, whether PCOS is part of one partner's personal infertility stumbling blocks, or not.

RE: "I think you should be very careful to question a person's veracity without substantiation" --
What I pointed out, Aaron, was that when reading internet posts where one person describes and puts success on a behavior that was not the poster's own actions, and presents it as unqualified examples of 'do this, and you'll have good results,' then people should read that information as "YMMV." I didn't question anyone's veracity...but I did point out the caution that it's hard to substantiate personal experiences that you read on the internet. I also posted that, for me, if I'm going to consider something when evaluating a problem I'm having, first-hand information carries more weight with me than second-hand reports of someone else's results. I realize that some people don't like to be reminded that they need to be cautious about medical experiences that they read on the internet, but unfortunately, no one can guarantee that everything that appears in a post on this forum is exactly as it happened...so unfortunately, that's a reminder that has to be said out loud once in awhile. I clearly stated that no offense was intended, Aaron...how you interpret the statements after that is up to you.

[realruth]

Gaelen.. This is a discussion board where people express their own opinions. Most of the time it has been with support and guidance from others. I think that a statement that these are just OUR Opinions is enough to stop confusion. I'm not sure why you have taken this to heart but there are several other studies out there that have shown the relationship/link between the two. I have cut and pasted part of an article from "the Zone" Author who explains about the inferility associated with insulin imbalance/resistance. -------------------------------------------- "Celebrity Guest Speaker Barry Sears, Ph.D." June 6, 2002 1:00 PM ET INCIID Nancy: Please welcome Barry Sears, Ph.D. author of the best selling diet book "The Zone" I Host Songdancer: We've heard a lot about diet and infertility, any tips for us? Barry Sears PhD: The key to diet is the ability to control your hormones, in particular insulin and eicosanoids. These two hormones, if maintained in appropriate zones, can be have a significant impact on infertility. INCIID Sherry: What are eicosanoids? Barry Sears PhD: Eicosanoids can be considered to master hormones that control virtually every aspect of your physiology. They are derived from essential fats in the diet and therefore they can be manipulated with relative ease using fish oil. INCIID Sherry: How do they help? Barry Sears PhD: Eicosanoids are a group of hundreds of different hormones that operate at the cellular level to control cell function. Although fish oils are an important aspect of eicosanoid control, you also have to control insuiln levels by balancing protein and carbohydrate the best you can at every meal. What this means practically is to eat adequate levels of low-fat protein coupled with lots of fruits and vegetables, and limiting the amount of starches such as bread, bagels, rice, and potatoes. INCIID Sherry: what does this do for fetility? Barry Sears PhD: The primary cause of infertility is overproduction of insulin which leads to an overproduction of androgens. The most striking example is polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) that is characterized by elevated levels of insulin. INCIID Sherry: Does this diet limit insulin? INCIID Sherry: And does it work like metformin or glucophage Barry Sears PhD: Once the insulin levels are reduced, fertility almost magically reappears. Glucophage is a relatively ineffective way of controlling insulin compared to following the Zone diet.

[Ottawa]

"IMO, in order for us to expect people to accept what we write when they don't have anything more to go on than what they can see from this board's posts, we need to carefully qualify what we say. "

I don't agree. Everyone here is here to improve/maintain their health.
If carefully qualifying our posts is a major concern, it might be best to post it as a disclaimer on this site's header. Several people now have voiced concerns over what they can post and some have avoided any postings.

There will always be a few that may need some input or guidance as to what is appropriate but most of us use a resource like this to learn of "first-hand" information that has worked for others here as well as the "science" of the program.

[LMN]

Well, "this is just my personal experience", but add my absolutely perfect 3 month old daughter to the list of PP babies!

I went to an OB after a diagnosis of PCOS and not being able to conceive, she gave me a PP book and said this was the ONLY way (she believed) people with PCOS could lose weight/increase chances of conceiving. She was very adament.
I visited her after 1 month and then 2 months, I had lost weight AND had two regular periods. By the 3rd visit my period was about 3 days late compared to the other two, she asked me - do you think you could be pregnant? I laughed - "no way, I never have regular periods anyway, this is just a delay" - she gave me a form for a blood test and I didn't even bother going. Then the next day I just started to wonder... What if I was....? So I went and bought an over the counter test and you guessed it - two blue lines. I was 4 1/2 weeks pregnant.
I would always share my experience with a friend who was having trouble conceiving - why deprieve them of the same chance I had?
So count me, my husband, my mum & dad, my extended family, as people very grateful to the Eades (and my OB). I sincerely believe without PP we would not have our baby.
Of course..... that's only my opinion!

[choubear]

To clarify my own post, I was referring to the fact that after reading your posts, it would be extraordinarily difficult for anyone NOT to understand that "YMMV" component - not to any potential confusion should a hapless PCOS sufferer become embroiled in a pg discussion in which she had no interest. But thank you for that as well. ;)

It will clearly take some getting used to, but I love the organization of this new board!

[Gaelen]

It will clearly take some getting used to, but I love the organization of this new board!

Well...it's a work in progress, but this format has a lot of potential, and as the group evolves, there's a lot more chance we can give people what they would like to see. Glad you like it...and now back to the regularly scheduled discussion. ;)

[Gaelen]

Relief posted this link to Regina Wiltshire's blog (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=652) in "The Science of Protein Power." Scroll down for the blog entry for May 12, 2006, "Can Diet Help those with PCOS?"

[thenextstep]

My dil has PCOS, diagnosed about 18 mos ago. She was told that it has been found that all women who have been tested of late, have high insulin output and it's now recommended right across the board to be on sugar-free diet and because she wants to become pregnant was put on Glucophage (sp)... Well, she was good for a few months... lost a lot of weight, is still taking the medication but is eating everything she's not supposed to! The weight is back on and she's not even a big eater! They have now gone through a few fertility treatments... nothing, and more nothing!

My research over the past several months has shown that PCOS is now listed as being a risk factor to diabetes, right along with obesity.

Another point of interest is, even if a woman diagnosed with PCOS has gone through menopause, it is recommended she continue on a sugar-free diet...

I'm sure you'll find the information in an Endocrinology Journal Publication or perhaps at MedScape and the ADA.. I haven't checked the above links yet, but it might even be listed there.

[gitfiddle]

I knew from reading my doctor's disease description book (checking out the pigmentation problem) that it PCOS indicated insulin resistance, but no-one explained what that was.

Knowing what I know now, I can track the symptoms of PCOS back to when I entered puberty at eleven. I only had one doctor who ever nodded in acknowledgement when I mentioned it on the new-patient profile. He's also the one who recommended PP. I'm keepin' him.

My gyn said I would need meds to get pregnant at 34. So happens I was sugarless and attending OA at the time. No problem at all!