A few more carbs? - Heart Health

[jamiedolan]

Hello;

As some of you know from my fairly recent posts, I have had some issues with low energy lately and have not lost a lot of weight so far on Protein Power.

Very recently, I have been consuming a bit more carbs then I thought I should. More like around 60 carbs and up to I would say 80 some days, but then I have some days that are down to 20 or 30. Most of the extra carbs are from raw milk and dairy products.
I noticed that all of the sudden I started to get a bit more energy again, and I started droping a few pounds. I am not really much more active with the extra carbs, so I can't understand how I am losing weight.

With eating more like the 60 ish grams of carbs a day, I am now down about 5 pounds lower than I was a month ago. My acid reflux / heart burn is deffinatly improved as well, most of the time now I am taking half the medicine for it that I used to.

I guess it doesn't matter, but I am trying to figure out why adding in some carbs was helpful to me in losing weight? I am on a number of prescription meds so maybe they do something funny to me that isn't quite normal. Who knows? Please feel free to tell me if you have a guess as to why I feel better and lose more weight on a few more carbs.

Here is my real question: One of my reason for switching to the protein power life style is due to some of the syndrom X symptoms I have developed, such as very high triglicrides. If I am eating low GI foods and keeping my carbs in the 60 to 80 gram a day range, is that likely to keep my triglicrides low? What is your expeniance with triglicrides and a bit higher level of carbs? I know I will have to have a test done to know for sure, but I was hoping to be on the plan for longer than a month before I get my test done. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestion on the matter. I know I am feeling better and losing some weight with a few more carbs, but I don't want to lose weight and feel better at the expense of screwing over my triglicrides.

Thanks

Jamie

[Mitra]

Jamie, I can't answer your query about why you feel better at just slightly higher carb levels, except to say that I do, too. Some of the low carb protagonists, like Lutz (Life Without Bread - an excellent book) and Barry Groves (Second Opinions web-site (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/) and Eat Fat Get Thin) recommend carb levels in the 60-70g range. You might find it interesting to read a blog by Dr Mike Eades: We Never Failed to Fail (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/we-never-failed-to-fail/).


But to get the insulin levels down and bring about all these benefits you’ve got to get your carb intake down to significantly below the 120-150 grams per day required by the glucose dependent cells. That’s why all the 11,000 people who think they are on low carb diets while consuming an average of 145 grams of carbohydrate per day will “never fail to fail” because it is indeed “the easiest thing to do” when you don’t keep your carbs low enough.

We and all the other authors of low-carbohydrate plans recommend that dieters reduce their carb consumption to the 20-50 grams per day level. We do that because we’ve all learned that the low-carb diet works at those levels, and now you know why. If you pussyfoot around with your carb restriction, you’ll go nowhere; if you commit, then you’ll bring all the wonderful metabolic pathways nature has endowed you with into play and you will experience the low-carb magic.

I know the quote mentions 20-50g per day, but the point he's making is that you need to be well below 120-150g, and that 145g doesn't do it. Personally, if you feel good at 60g I'd stay there. And if you want to be extra careful, try to space your carbs through the day. PP and the other books suggest experimentation to find the carb level for maintenance.

[ruthla]

I wouldn't worry too much about "why" your body does best at 60g carbs per day, and just follow your body's cues! Make sure those carbs come from healthy food sources, not nutritionally empty foods.

I think you'll still get the health benefits of LC as you're still consuming far fewer than the 300+ g of carbs per day that make up the "typical American diet".

[laughingW]

Most of the extra carbs are from raw milk and dairy products.
I noticed that all of the sudden I started to get a bit more energy again, and I started droping a few pounds. I am not really much more active with the extra carbs, so I can't understand how I am losing weight.


I have heard that both calcium and CLA from such excellent dairy sources, help with fat loss. Plus the good sat fat.

[deirdra]

Eades and Atkins recommend that dieters reduce their carb consumption to the 20-50 grams per day level, but that is net carbs. If you count the fibre too that would would add up to 25-75g total carbs, depending on how much fibre you eat. So your 60g is not out of line, esp. if you feel best on that amount (I feel terrible and start retaining lots of water if I get more than 50g).

[Omlette]

Totally speculating here, but if your increased carbs come from milk and dairy, you are also increasing your protein and fat levels. Maybe your body needs the extra calories, protein and fat to do that. 60 - 80 carbs is not that far out of the range especially when it is not an every day thing.

[jamiedolan]

Eades and Atkins recommend that dieters reduce their carb consumption to the 20-50 grams per day level, but that is net carbs. If you count the fibre too that would would add up to 25-75g total carbs, depending on how much fibre you eat.

I don't think I eat a whole lot of fiber. Maybe I get a little more than I think. The fiber containing foods that I eat are; Broccoli, Cauliflower, Asparagus, Mushrooms, onions, bell peppers, nuts, and blueberries.

I am getting the vast majority of my carbs from milk, yogart, or keifer. Unfortunately, I am not getting and fiber carbs in dairy products.

I was on the low side on carbs again yesterday, getting maybe only 20 grams, but I just didn't feel like eating anything else.

This morning I had a protein shake with about 60 grams of protein and about 12 carbs, 4 eggs with about 3 ounces of cheese, which should have added about 50 more grams of protein onto the 60 from the shake. Again, I am kind of draging today. Now if I go and eat something rather carby, I bet I will feel like I have evergy again.

Maybe some peoples bodies have a harder time using fat for energy than others? I am clearly able to burn fat for energy, as some days I have eaten over 3000 calories with 70%+ of them from fat.

It's so weird. I am not really having any problem with getting myself full and feeling satisfied with under 40 carbs, however, I just keep feeling so darn tired with days less than 40.

I am just feeling tired and spacey today, even thought I felt like I slept pretty well and ate a good size breakfast.

Maybe I need to forece myself to exercise more, it is just such a delicate balance because if I exercise too much I end up throwing myself into an autoimmune flareup and every joint in my body cracks when I move.

Jamie

[deirdra]

Dairy products always leave me tired & spacey w/aching joints. Have you ever tried going without them? (I know that may be blasphemy in Wisconsin).

I think it is entirely true that some people burn fat (or carbs or protein) better than others. Barry Groves' new book describes the studies that say 58% of protein can be turned into glucose & they actually had a huge range of values (I had heard the 58% before, but never the fact that it was highly variable from one individual to the next). Another study says 10% of fat can be turned into glucose. And the Eades say protein and/or fat are only broken down and recombined to form glucose if your body needs glucose. I think this is why some can only lose or maintain on 30g carbs, and others can eat 120g of carbs with no problems.

[jamiedolan]

Dairy products always leave me tired & spacey w/aching joints. Have you ever tried going without them? (I know that may be blasphemy in Wisconsin).

Not for very long I haven't. I have gone without milk (lactose) for periods of time, but still ate cheese durring thoses times. I have wondered if dairy could cause any problems for me, since I have been so reluctant to give up dairy, I switched to all completely raw cream, cheeses, and milk, thinking that would help solve any negitive problems I might have had from milk.

I am curious, did you ever have any raw dairy or was it all just processed dairy?

I am not totally against trying a diet without dairy in concept, it is just hard to imagine how I would do it since I get so many of my calories (espically fat calories from cream) from dairy products. I like meat and some vegetables, but there is only so much of them that I can handle. Alot of days I just have trouble feeling up to chewing up enough meat to get my 120 grams of protein (nearly 1.5 pounds of meat). I just don't know how I would do it.

Jamie

[deirdra]

I don't have access to raw dairy, and for me it was the casein, not the lactose that was causing inflammatory flares, stuffed up sinuses, that spacey/tired feeling, and abnormal desires for lots more dairy once I've had some (I don't get these cravings if I avoid it). Things like yogurt, kefir, soft and lower-fat cheeses often have extra milk solids added (& more casein) & were the worst for me.

With a lot of trial and error I've found that I do best if I limit myself to only the highest fat dairy: heavy cream (1-2T/day), butter - preferably clarified (1-2T/day) and full fat hard cheeses (up to 3.5oz/day, 3-4 days a week). Higher fat dairy tends to be lower casein and I seek out lower-casein cheeses like Cheddar & Gouda.

[Anniesnan]

I am not totally against trying a diet without dairy in concept, it is just hard to imagine how I would do it since I get so many of my calories (espically fat calories from cream) from dairy products. I like meat and some vegetables, but there is only so much of them that I can handle. Alot of days I just have trouble feeling up to chewing up enough meat to get my 120 grams of protein (nearly 1.5 pounds of meat). I just don't know how I would do it.
Jamie


Jamie,
the first time I read PP, that was an almost identical thought to my first thought, except substitute bread/wheat/carbs for dairy products:eek:.
Now, except for my veggies at dinner, most of my carbs are from the half/half I put in my coffee.

As for triglycerides - if judging by my dh & myself - over the last 7+ years or so - it was removing trans fats from our diets that has had the biggest impact on our trig.
Our doctor is completely amazed that my dh's trig aren't sky high - and this despite the fact that he pretty much has fallen off the PP wagon (although I'm hoping to get him back on) and he has problems with his general cholesterol numbers.
And for me, most doc's would be horrified by the number of eggs I eat but my trig are consistently low, my cholesterol isn't bad, and my ratio is off the charts great.

I won't buy anything that has any partially hydrogenated oil listed, nor will I buy a packaged food that even has soy oil listed, 'cos, while I can't quote the page, I remember reading that many/most commercial soy oils are partially hydrogenated, also. Much of the carbage dh eats is fresh baked breads or potatoes he has prepared, etc.

[maxlharris]

I hate to harp on a point, but isn't it possible that the high amount of dairy in your diet is the problem? A TON of people report dairy as a stall thing. I know you're not trying to lose weight, but if it's stalling others, it might be the problem you're facing. Especially in the quantities that you discuss, Jamie.

[Omlette]

I don't think I eat a whole lot of fiber. Maybe I get a little more than I think. The fiber containing foods that I eat are; Broccoli, Cauliflower, Asparagus, Mushrooms, onions, bell peppers, nuts, and blueberries.

I am getting the vast majority of my carbs from milk, yogart, or keifer. Unfortunately, I am not getting and fiber carbs in dairy products.

I was on the low side on carbs again yesterday, getting maybe only 20 grams, but I just didn't feel like eating anything else.

This morning I had a protein shake with about 60 grams of protein and about 12 carbs, 4 eggs with about 3 ounces of cheese, which should have added about 50 more grams of protein onto the 60 from the shake. Again, I am kind of draging today. Now if I go and eat something rather carby, I bet I will feel like I have evergy again.

Maybe some peoples bodies have a harder time using fat for energy than others? I am clearly able to burn fat for energy, as some days I have eaten over 3000 calories with 70%+ of them from fat.

It's so weird. I am not really having any problem with getting myself full and feeling satisfied with under 40 carbs, however, I just keep feeling so darn tired with days less than 40.

I am just feeling tired and spacey today, even thought I felt like I slept pretty well and ate a good size breakfast.

Maybe I need to forece myself to exercise more, it is just such a delicate balance because if I exercise too much I end up throwing myself into an autoimmune flareup and every joint in my body cracks when I move.

Jamie


This is a LOT of protein at one sitting. You had around 100 grams of protein just for breakfast. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading on several occassions, that the body can only handle or properly use a certain amount of protein at one time.

Maybe eat your eggs, cheeses and a piece of toast or a side of fruit for breakfast, then have a protein shake an hour or two later. Spacing your food might help you to not feel so sleepy and IMO would help your body utilize the protein better especially if you are not doing muscle building excercises at a higher level.

[maxlharris]

Forget the macronutrient breakdown of that listing...
That's an F-load of food. You don't even detail fat, but from protein and carbs that's, hrm, let's see:
60g of protein = 240 kcal
12g of carbos = 048 kcal
28g of protein = 112 kcal (that's the eggs)
22g of protein = 088 kcal (that's cheese protein)
Before we even add fat in, we're talking nearly 500 calories. That's a lot to digest.

I know you're not looking to drop weight. But, consider the thermic effect of food. Your body works to digest stuff. It ups your metabolism. But, from an energy point of view, it maybe is draining you somewhat to eat all this food at one serving.

Just a thought.

[goingssh]

I have to agree, that is just a lot of FOOD to consume at one sitting! I would definitely go into a food coma for awhile if I ate 1000 calories at one time. The body uses energy for digestion, it's why it really is true you shouldn't go swimming for a little while after you eat, higher probability of muscle cramps because you're busy digesting. It may be partly why you feel better with more carbs too, the quick spike in blood sugar may offset the low-energy feeling of digesting, but that is a temporary effect.

Even without that, however, I can relate with how you feel in general, it took me over 6 weeks of PP to completely get over what they call the initial withdrawal symptoms as your body learns to burn fat/protein instead of carbs. During that time I was low-energy, had a hard time focusing, felt "dumb" all the time, like having a permanent hangover basically. Exercise definitely helped, although it was hard the first few weeks to even get up the energy/willpower to do it. Caffeine helped a bit too, but it is arguable whether or not it's good for you.

Finally though, after 2 months maybe, I seem to have completely adjusted, in fact I tried last week to move up to 75g or so of carbs since I don't need/want to lose any more weight, just build some muscle, and I didn't like it at all, I found myself right back to craving sweets, always being hungry, getting really hyper and then suddenly tired, etc... All the old symptoms of my sugary diet. Now I stick right around 50g a day (not including fiber), and am quite happy.

So, I would say give it a little more time, eat smaller meals more often (as mentioned in the above post), and maybe try being a little more regular about the amount of carbs you eat, instead of 20 one day and 65 the next, aim for 40-50 every day, I think that may help your body make the adjustment.

[Gaelen]

I am not totally against trying a diet without dairy in concept, it is just hard to imagine how I would do it since I get so many of my calories (espically fat calories from cream) from dairy products. I like meat and some vegetables, but there is only so much of them that I can handle. Alot of days I just have trouble feeling up to chewing up enough meat to get my 120 grams of protein (nearly 1.5 pounds of meat). I just don't know how I would do it.

Well, for starters, you could get your fat calories from butter, coconut and olive oil on those veggies, and frankly, if I had to get 120g of protein from meat alone every day, I'd probably go nuts. But you can get a fair portion of that protein from FISH, nuts and seeds, nut butters (which also are sources of beneficial fats, especially if you choose salmon, macadamia nuts, etc.) You could also throw in a low carb protein shake (Isopure whey dissolves handily in any liquid, so you wouldn't need liquid dairy--and it advertises itself as lactose free if lactose is the issue.)

And I agree with everyone who's said that eating the type of meal you described (protein shake plus a big egg breakfast) is just way to much food to take in during a short period of time.

Predators gorge, and then SLEEP IT OFF. Like it or not, most modern adults are not really predators in the sense that they're free to gorge, and then sleep the day away. If when you gorge (and that meal you described would be gorging for me), you experience sleepiness, maybe you're just not designed to take in so much food at one time. Try splitting up your intake and spacing it better throughout the day, and see if your overall energy levels improve.

[maxlharris]

Besides, primates aren't really true predators. So, the gorge and sleep bit isn't really anything we've evolved to (much as my wife might disagree, at least on the sleep the day away part). If we had evolved as gorgers, we wouldn't have gag reflex and we'd bolt food like wolves and predatory cats. Just not what people do.

Again, a more normal diet without so much extra fat, might not be such a bad idea. Since it's really what PP is about, anyway.

[jamiedolan]

Jamie,
the first time I read PP, that was an almost identical thought to my first thought, except substitute bread/wheat/carbs for dairy products:eek:.
Now, except for my veggies at dinner, most of my carbs are from the half/half I put in my coffee.

As for triglycerides - if judging by my dh & myself - over the last 7+ years or so - it was removing trans fats from our diets that has had the biggest impact on our trig.
Our doctor is completely amazed that my dh's trig aren't sky high - and this despite the fact that he pretty much has fallen off the PP wagon (although I'm hoping to get him back on) and he has problems with his general cholesterol numbers.
And for me, most doc's would be horrified by the number of eggs I eat but my trig are consistently low, my cholesterol isn't bad, and my ratio is off the charts great.

I won't buy anything that has any partially hydrogenated oil listed, nor will I buy a packaged food that even has soy oil listed, 'cos, while I can't quote the page, I remember reading that many/most commercial soy oils are partially hydrogenated, also. Much of the carbage dh eats is fresh baked breads or potatoes he has prepared, etc.

I eat very little pre-prepared foods. I have read about many of the evils of soy, and although I don't strightly avoid it, I avoid it if I can. I do find that they use soy in a number of products where you would not expect to find it for any logical reason. For example, some bag teas contain soy something in the list of ingredances. That seems so weird to me. Some protein drinks also have soy, even though they are clearly dairy based.

I pretty much only use butter and recently added into coconut oil in cooking. I use a high quality olive oil as well, but not for cooking. I find it's really hard to avoid vegetable oils in some products, like most nuts have cottonseed, sunflower, corn, or safflower oil listed,, yes, on plain nuts like cashews or almonds. I can find them raw and unprocessed, and will do that if I can, but I often have to pay 4 times as much for my nuts to get them raw and unprocessed.

As best as I can tell I don't get any hydrogenated oil in my diet. It is possiable that I am getting it from a hidden source like soy oil, as you suggested. Overall I would say that on adverage that I don't get more than 10% of my diet from pre-processed foods (I make or eat plain / raw 90% of my food).

Thanks
Jamie

[jamiedolan]

I hate to harp on a point, but isn't it possible that the high amount of dairy in your diet is the problem? A TON of people report dairy as a stall thing. I know you're not trying to lose weight, but if it's stalling others, it might be the problem you're facing. Especially in the quantities that you discuss, Jamie.

HI;

I am deffinatly considering this. I am going to do a test avoidance of dairy, atleast for a little while and see if it makes a difference.

Jamie

[jamiedolan]

Forget the macronutrient breakdown of that listing...
That's an F-load of food. You don't even detail fat, but from protein and carbs that's, hrm, let's see:
60g of protein = 240 kcal
12g of carbos = 048 kcal
28g of protein = 112 kcal (that's the eggs)
22g of protein = 088 kcal (that's cheese protein)
Before we even add fat in, we're talking nearly 500 calories. That's a lot to digest.

I know you're not looking to drop weight. But, consider the thermic effect of food. Your body works to digest stuff. It ups your metabolism. But, from an energy point of view, it maybe is draining you somewhat to eat all this food at one serving.

Just a thought.

You have made me realize a very good point, I need to find a happy balance, I will skip breakfast and lunch some days because I am just not hungry at all. Then I will eat a lot at dinner. I don't do that too often, but it happens. Then there are days I will eat breakfast and sometimes get carried away and eat too much.

Moderation & consistance in my diet - I deffinatly have to work on this.
Jamie

[jamiedolan]

[quote=Gaelen;58895]Well, for starters, you could get your fat calories from butter, coconut and olive oil on those veggies, and frankly, if I had to get 120g of protein from meat alone every day, I'd probably go nuts. But you can get a fair portion of that protein from FISH, nuts and seeds,

I can't find any fish I like, it's weird. I bought some ocean caught salmon and still had to choke it down. Free range organic Chicken is my fish. :-)

nut butters (which also are sources of beneficial fats, especially if you choose salmon, macadamia nuts, etc.) You could also throw in a low carb

What do you do with nut butters? I mean what do you put them on? I eat Gluten Free, so I avoid breads and crackers aside from there carb content. Do you just eat the nut butters right out of the jar as a snack?

I bought a jar of expensive organic seasame butter tonight. It is 4 carbs, 4 fiber == 0 ecc, how cool. I wonder if it will be any good.

protein shake (Isopure whey dissolves handily in any liquid, so you wouldn't need liquid dairy--and it advertises itself as lactose free if lactose is the issue.)

Where do you get this from? What kind of stores sell it locally? GNC? Wmart here does not have it, nor do the grocery stores.

And I agree with everyone who's said that eating the type of meal you described (protein shake plus a big egg breakfast) is just way to much food to take in during a short period of time.

Predators gorge, and then SLEEP IT OFF. Like it or not, most modern adults are not really predators in the sense that they're free to gorge, and then sleep the day away. If when you gorge (and that meal you described would be gorging for me), you experience sleepiness, maybe you're just not designed to take in so much food at one time. Try splitting up your intake and spacing it better throughout the day, and see if your overall energy levels improve.

I am eating too much like my dogs. LOL They deffinatly are different, My 20# dog can eat 10% of his body weight in one sitting, 2#'s.

Thanks
Jamie

[jamiedolan]

So, I would say give it a little more time, eat smaller meals more often (as mentioned in the above post), and maybe try being a little more regular about the amount of carbs you eat, instead of 20 one day and 65 the next, aim for 40-50 every day, I think that may help your body make the adjustment.

I am going to try hard to aim for some more consistancy, something I am rarely good at. It's been amazing that I have been able to stick with PP overall (more or less) for 5 weeks now. While I see myself easing up on carbs a bit more at some points, espically in the summer if I am more active, I plan to stay on the diet plan for life. (if I am feeling better in the summer, I can burn well over an additional 1000 calories a day, and likely alot more)

Jamie

[gitfiddle]

Jamie, I get my Isopure at GNC locally. It's pricey at a posted price of $59.97-ish, but it goes on sale, sometimes down to $31. I add my frozen fruit, lecithin and fish oil to make breakfast. I would never get those supps down without my shake!

[lczeledoc]

You don't even detail fat, but from protein and carbs that's, hrm, let's see:
60g of protein = 240 kcal
12g of carbos = 048 kcal
28g of protein = 112 kcal (that's the eggs)
22g of protein = 088 kcal (that's cheese protein)
Before we even add fat in, we're talking nearly 500 calories. That's a lot to digest.


The fat would add probablyanother 300-400 calories. Sure, it is not a small meal, but I don't think it is excessively large. A "super size" fast food meal is probable 1200 to 1400 calories, and the average Joe/Joanne seems to handle it--aside from the long term damage from the high glycemic load & trans fat content.

[Gaelen]

I can't find any fish I like, it's weird. I bought some ocean caught salmon and still had to choke it down. Free range organic Chicken is my fish. :-)[\QUOTE]

Jamie, when I'm trying to show people that fish can be their friend, I don't start with salmon, which is considered a 'strong' fish. Start with the freshest white fleshed fish that you can get, from a supermarket with a good fish department or better yet a true fish shop. Right now, I'd aim for perch, cod, or haddock. And maybe even don't prep it yourself...go to a decent fish restaurant on a Friday night and get the house special. Yeah, it's gonna have some fat and maybe not be cooked in the oil you'd choose. But for a lot of people, the smell of the fish is what turns them off, and it either smells because it's not as fresh as it should be or because they cooked it, and fish smells when you cook it.

[QUOTE]What do you do with nut butters? I mean what do you put them on? I eat Gluten Free, so I avoid breads and crackers aside from there carb content. Do you just eat the nut butters right out of the jar as a snack?

Spread them on celery and other crisp veggies, spread them on pappadums (flatbreads/crackers made from lentil flour--gluten free), make sauces out of them for vegetables, I even use nut butters to up the protein of soups and stews (African groundnut stew is essentially a vegetarian peanut stew...) The sesame butter will make a fine sauce, or mixed with ground chickpeas and garlic an awesome hummus.


Where do you get this from? What kind of stores sell it locally? GNC? Wmart here does not have it, nor do the grocery stores.

GNC, Vitamin World--places like that--or you could try the Internet.

Hope this helps.

[maxlharris]

The fat would add probablyanother 300-400 calories. Sure, it is not a small meal, but I don't think it is excessively large. A "super size" fast food meal is probable 1200 to 1400 calories, and the average Joe/Joanne seems to handle it--aside from the long term damage from the high glycemic load & trans fat content.

Uhm, the OP has talked at length about getting 70% of calories from fat through use of heavy cream and other natural fat sources. So, while a natural assumption might be to go with 300 extra calories from fat, making it 800 kcal, a better assumption, based on the broader base of Jamie's posting is to put it closer to, uhm, 500 is 30% of 1600-1700 calories. That's excessive for a meal.

Besides, if you want to compare to a super size fast food meal, compare to the feeling that most people get after eating a super sized fast food meal. Forget the glycemic load and trans fat long term damage, rather, look at the energy levels in the 10 minutes to 3 hour post consumption window. And, you might not be surprised when the OP complains of low energy, sluggishness, and general not great feeling. When I actually looked at the foods, it popped.

Let's forget an academic experiment in estimation. Let's look at the foods consumed.

This morning I had a protein shake with about 60 grams of protein and about 12 carbs, 4 eggs with about 3 ounces of cheese, which should have added about 50 more grams of protein onto the 60 from the shake.

What we know:
4 eggs (assumption: Extra Large, so 200g weight total): 71 * 4 = 284 kcal
3 ounces cheese (assumption: cheddar): 113 * 3 = 339 kcal
The Shake: (protein component): 60*4 = 240 kcal
The Shake: (carb component): 12 * 4 = 48 kcal
What we can debate:
The Shake: (Fat component): with water, and isopure, we're done. But, since we KNOW from other posts that he is mixing with dairy, let's make a range of assumptions, and maybe Jamie can enlighten us from the darkness of our imaginations. Anyrate, might look like this:
1 ounce cream (light), 7 ounces water: 82 kcal
8 fl oz cream (heavy): 821 kcal

Our totals:
Before assumptions about fat: 911 kcal for the meal.
High value: 1700+ kcal
A middle range assumption: 1321 kcal

Again, Jamie would be able to clarify the exact composition of the shake, which we can only speculate on. But, knowing what I know from having read Jamie, I think we can safely say that we're talking about the caloric equivalent of a fast food super sized value meal (with diet soda), dumped on a sleeping metabolism. We can debate if it's a big load or not, but remembering when I was big and eating supersized value meals, I felt a little better after eating them, then comatose for a few hours until I got some caffeine or sugar. We're not dealing with carb issues here, but calorie wise, it's a big dump on a resting metabolism.

[jamiedolan]

Uhm, the OP has talked at length about getting 70% of calories from fat through use of heavy cream and other natural fat sources. So, while a natural assumption might be to go with 300 extra calories from fat, making it 800 kcal, a better assumption, based on the broader base of Jamie's posting is to put it closer to, uhm, 500 is 30% of 1600-1700 calories. That's excessive for a meal.

Besides, if you want to compare to a super size fast food meal, compare to the feeling that most people get after eating a super sized fast food meal. Forget the glycemic load and trans fat long term damage, rather, look at the energy levels in the 10 minutes to 3 hour post consumption window. And, you might not be surprised when the OP complains of low energy, sluggishness, and general not great feeling. When I actually looked at the foods, it popped.

Let's forget an academic experiment in estimation. Let's look at the foods consumed.


What we know:
4 eggs (assumption: Extra Large, so 200g weight total): 71 * 4 = 284 kcal
3 ounces cheese (assumption: cheddar): 113 * 3 = 339 kcal
The Shake: (protein component): 60*4 = 240 kcal
The Shake: (carb component): 12 * 4 = 48 kcal
What we can debate:
The Shake: (Fat component): with water, and isopure, we're done. But, since we KNOW from other posts that he is mixing with dairy, let's make a range of assumptions, and maybe Jamie can enlighten us from the darkness of our imaginations. Anyrate, might look like this:
1 ounce cream (light), 7 ounces water: 82 kcal
8 fl oz cream (heavy): 821 kcal

Our totals:
Before assumptions about fat: 911 kcal for the meal.
High value: 1700+ kcal
A middle range assumption: 1321 kcal

Again, Jamie would be able to clarify the exact composition of the shake, which we can only speculate on. But, knowing what I know from having read Jamie, I think we can safely say that we're talking about the caloric equivalent of a fast food super sized value meal (with diet soda), dumped on a sleeping metabolism. We can debate if it's a big load or not, but remembering when I was big and eating supersized value meals, I felt a little better after eating them, then comatose for a few hours until I got some caffeine or sugar. We're not dealing with carb issues here, but calorie wise, it's a big dump on a resting metabolism.

Hello;

I appricate all the help. That particular morning when I made the shake I referenced in this post, I made it with about 6 ounces of whole milk. The Protein Shake mix I used is listed as having 52 grams of protein with 4 grams of carbs.

I think I end up doing way too much gorge and fast type of eating for a couple reasons;
1. I am on a gluten free diet, and it is exceptionally challanging to eat out anywhere.
2. As everyone here knows just eating low carb when eating out can be challanging, combine that with gluten free, and it is nearly impossiable to eat out.

I don't eat a lot of preserved foods anymore, so other than nuts, that means that I have to carry a cooler and ice with me anywhere I want food. Even with this frigid wisconsin weather, food can still warm up sitting in a car.

Thus what happens is like today for example: I got up this morning; Had about 14 ounces of herbal tea with about 1/2 tsp (3-4carbs) of organic raw honey. Then I got invloved in helping my dad with some projects, and went out of the area for most of the day, being about a hour from home. I had 3 cans of diet soda, which is far more than I have most of the time. It's 6:47 p.m. here, I got home about a half hour ago, and still have not eaten anything.

I know it's proboly not very good for me, but if I don't have time to plan in advance and prepare food, bring a cooler, etc, then the times I end up being away from home, I don't get to eat durring the day. The problem is that if I go outsome where for the day with other people that are just going to eat at a restuant, and there is nothing for me to eat at the restraunt, then, I don't eat or I eat some of my almonds or mac nuts.

Based on the responses I have been reading here from others, I suspect that the bottom line here before we do any more troubleshooting is going to be that I have to figure out a way somehow to be more consistant with my eating habbits, and not do any much gorge and fasting.

I don't know if I can describe this feeling I have at all or not, but I am going to try just for the heck of it. Back years ago when I would eat a Mcdonalds meal, I remember what it was like being slugish from eating too much. I remember what that feeling was like. When I am not eating carbs, I fairly rarely feel that way at all. It kind of feels more like I just don't have energy all the time regardless of if I have eaten, a little, a lot or nothing. I guess what I am trying to say is that it kind of feels like my body isn't doing a good (efficent) job at converting the fat and protein to energy for me. I could be completely wrong, and maybe I am right and there is no way to fix this, maybe I am just not as good at running on fat stores as some people are. Like right now, with my last real food being a plate of brocoli I had last night at about 7p.m., I don't feel slugish, but I am very fatigued feeling. With a list of several things I want to do tonight, I am having trouble finding the energy.

I am thinking of trying to drink a 52 gram protein shake shortly and see if I feel any more energetic after drinking that, based on pased experiance, I don't think I will feel a lot different after I consume the shake.

Thanks again for everything;
Jamie

[jamiedolan]

[quote]I can't find any fish I like, it's weird. I bought some ocean caught salmon and still had to choke it down. Free range organic Chicken is my fish. :-)[\QUOTE]

Jamie, when I'm trying to show people that fish can be their friend, I don't start with salmon, which is considered a 'strong' fish. Start with the freshest white fleshed fish that you can get, from a supermarket with a good fish department or better yet a true fish shop. Right now, I'd aim for perch, cod, or haddock. And maybe even don't prep it yourself...go to a decent fish restaurant on a Friday night and get the house special. Yeah, it's gonna have some fat and maybe not be cooked in the oil you'd choose. But for a lot of people, the smell of the fish is what turns them off, and it either smells because it's not as fresh as it should be or because they cooked it, and fish smells when you cook it.



Spread them on celery and other crisp veggies, spread them on pappadums (flatbreads/crackers made from lentil flour--gluten free), make sauces out of them for vegetables, I even use nut butters to up the protein of soups and stews (African groundnut stew is essentially a vegetarian peanut stew...) The sesame butter will make a fine sauce, or mixed with ground chickpeas and garlic an awesome hummus.



GNC, Vitamin World--places like that--or you could try the Internet.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. :-)

[Karole]

Jamie, I would be totally, totally wiped out if I tried to run all day with out anything in my stomach except tea and diet soda. No wonder you don't have energy to do anything else. You are running on empty; no carbs, no calories and no protein either.

I always eat bunless burgers, grilled chicken salad, taco salad w/o beans and shell, steak, cottage cheese, and grilled veggies when I eat out. (Not all at the same time !) :D:D There is no gluten in those foods is there? I was just wondering why you don't choose to eat things like that when you are out and about.

Do try and eat more consistently and see if you don't feel better, I think you are right on about that. Good luck.

[jamiedolan]

Jamie, I would be totally, totally wiped out if I tried to run all day with out anything in my stomach except tea and diet soda. No wonder you don't have energy to do anything else. You are running on empty; no carbs, no calories and no protein either.

I always eat bunless burgers, grilled chicken salad, taco salad w/o beans and shell, steak, cottage cheese, and grilled veggies when I eat out. (Not all at the same time !) :D:D There is no gluten in those foods is there? I was just wondering why you don't choose to eat things like that when you are out and about.

Do try and eat more consistently and see if you don't feel better, I think you are right on about that. Good luck.

There isn't gluten in any of thoses things on there own, but... Many / most sauces have wheat in them to thicken them. Soysauce which is used as a marinade for many meats has gluten in it. It is hard to get many restraunts to take specail orders, i.e. hold the bun. On a gluten free diet, your not suppose to even have wheat products like a bun come into contact with your food. So while some foods like ones that you mention should be safe to eat, it is very hard for me to know, as the waiter often has to idea what is really in there food.

Jamie

[Songwriter]

Jamie, I can't answer your query about why you feel better at just slightly higher carb levels, except to say that I do, too. Some of the low carb protagonists, like Lutz (Life Without Bread - an excellent book) and Barry Groves (Second Opinions web-site (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/) and Eat Fat Get Thin) recommend carb levels in the 60-70g range. You might find it interesting to read a blog by Dr Mike Eades: We Never Failed to Fail (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/we-never-failed-to-fail/).

Thanks so much for your post, Mitra, the Dr. Eades link is valuable, indeed.

[Mitra]

It's one of my favourite of his blog articles, Bill :).

[Gaelen]

I know it's proboly not very good for me, but if I don't have time to plan in advance and prepare food, bring a cooler, etc, then the times I end up being away from home, I don't get to eat durring the day. The problem is that if I go outsome where for the day with other people that are just going to eat at a restuant, and there is nothing for me to eat at the restraunt, then, I don't eat or I eat some of my almonds or mac nuts.

Based on the responses I have been reading here from others, I suspect that the bottom line here before we do any more troubleshooting is going to be that I have to figure out a way somehow to be more consistant with my eating habbits, and not do any much gorge and fasting.

I don't know if I can describe this feeling I have at all or not, but I am going to try just for the heck of it. Back years ago when I would eat a Mcdonalds meal, I remember what it was like being slugish from eating too much. I remember what that feeling was like. When I am not eating carbs, I fairly rarely feel that way at all. It kind of feels more like I just don't have energy all the time regardless of if I have eaten, a little, a lot or nothing. I guess what I am trying to say is that it kind of feels like my body isn't doing a good (efficent) job at converting the fat and protein to energy for me. I could be completely wrong, and maybe I am right and there is no way to fix this, maybe I am just not as good at running on fat stores as some people are. Like right now, with my last real food being a plate of brocoli I had last night at about 7p.m., I don't feel slugish, but I am very fatigued feeling. With a list of several things I want to do tonight, I am having trouble finding the energy.

I am thinking of trying to drink a 52 gram protein shake shortly and see if I feel any more energetic after drinking that, based on pased experiance, I don't think I will feel a lot different after I consume the shake.

Jamie, first...along with getting more consistent in how often and what you eat, you will have to do some planning. I used to actually have to set alarms to 'remind' me to eat because of my work schedule...then it became easier to remember. But like many people here, if I go too long without eating, I don't make good choices...and my body doesn't function well on empty.

As for things to compensate for those unplanned situations, there are gluten-free ready to drink low carb protein shakes and even gluten free meals-ready-to-eat which don't require either heating or refrigeration. You can and should keep stuff like this with you to help out when you're in a situation where you don't have ready access to the foods you need. You can also carry with you (as I do) a snack-sized ziploc bag with a serving of protein powder that can be mixed into water or milk (yeah, milk. If you're not eating anything for an extended period of time, 5-6g of carbs from a half cup of whole milk isn't going to kill you...!) Add to that small packages of nuts and seeds, homemade protein bars, string cheese. You could even keep handy small cans of tuna in oil (gluten free) or sardines if you could work through the I-hate-fish part. ;)

You might have to find a health food store or natural foods store to find some low carb gluten free products that you can keep with you, and you might have to spend an hour in the store reading labels--but those things are out there, honest. And once you find them, stock up! You also might consider keeping in your car a small insulated cooler which, even without ice, would protect your 'stash' from temp extremes.

I completely agree that the gorge-fast lifestyle isn't for everyone. However, the reason that you may not yet be efficient at fat burning is that you've not given your body a consistent schedule of low carb foods so that it could adapt. It *does* take a body time to adapt, maybe as long as a month depending on previous eating habits and level of insulin resistance, and there's no research out there that interspersing periods of gorge-fast into that mix helps you adapt any easier. It also doesn't surprise me that a plate of broccoli, a mug of tea with a small hit of honey and three diet sodas for a period of 24 hours (counting the time you were sleeping and not eating into the period between your last intake of serious protein and food) leaves you feeling no or low energy. I'd be wiped out, too. I definitely have to eat regularly to maintain my active metabolism.

As for eating out when low carb and gluten free...pick better restaurants. Seriously. There's no gluten added to fried, poached or boiled eggs. I've ordered and gotten unsauced grilled boneless chicken breast, grilled steak, grilled seafood, grilled pork, etc. in restaurants all over the Eastern seaboard--you just have to ask. Get the salad bar, and put on your raw greens some nuts, some shredded cheese, the hard boiled eggs. I know how difficult it can be to eat a special diet when you're in a restaurant, but I also know that it's completely possible. So don't fall into the trap of 'I don't have time to plan.' Jamie, if you want to succeed at this, you don't have time NOT to plan...!

[jamiedolan]

As for things to compensate for those unplanned situations, there are gluten-free ready to drink low carb protein shakes and even gluten free

.HI,

I found a new protein shake yesterday at Vitamin Shope Called Body Tech Whey Tech, and it contains: "Cross flow microfiltered whey protein concentrate", I think that is what the Protein Power books says you are suppose to get is the cross flower microfiltered powder.

I did get some of the isopure to try as well. The Whey Tech is a much better price than the isopure, is the whey tech is ok. I am going to have to look in my PP book again and see if I am remembering it correctly that they said cross flow microflitered whey.

I looked at Vitimin Shope and at the largest grocery store in the area and could not find a single protein bar that was gluten free that had less than about 27 grams of carbs in it. There were a couple wheat based bars that were lower. I am going to have to keep looking. For right now, Almonds still seem like one of my best snack foods when I am out.


meals-ready-to-eat which don't require either heating or refrigeration. You can and should keep stuff like this with you to help out when you're in a situation where you don't have ready access to the foods you need. You can also carry with you (as I do) a snack-sized ziploc bag with a serving of protein powder that can be mixed into water or milk (yeah, milk. If you're not eating anything for an extended period of time, 5-6g of carbs from a half cup of whole milk isn't going to kill you...!) Add to that small
packages of nuts and seeds, homemade protein bars, string cheese. You could even keep handy small cans of tuna in oil (gluten free) or sardines if you could work through the I-hate-fish part. ;)

.I had been bringing Mac nuts or Almonds with me alot, but I just got kind of tired of eating so many nuts and havent had many in the last few weeks. I will have to get back into a nut phase again I think. Fish sounds like a good convient idea if I could get my mind around the whole not liking fish thing, I will have to try a more mild fish again at some point as you had suggested.

I may try to make some home made protein bars too. I am going to try and make some almond flour, I read it can be great for a number of recipes.

I searched at multiple stores for the papadums, but was unable to find them at any of the stores I looked at. Do you end up ordering these?


You might have to find a health food store or natural foods store to find some low carb gluten free products that you can keep with you, and you might have to spend an hour in the store reading labels--but those things are out there, honest. And once you find them, stock up! You also might

.I will have to look at some of the smaller specialty health food stores / vitamin stores.

consider keeping in your car a small insulated cooler which, even without ice, would protect your 'stash' from temp extremes.

I completely agree that the gorge-fast lifestyle isn't for everyone. However, the reason that you may not yet be efficient at fat burning is that you've not given your body a consistent schedule of low carb foods so that it could adapt. It *does* take a body time to adapt, maybe as long as a month depending on previous eating habits and level of insulin resistance, and there's no research out there that interspersing periods of gorge-fast into that mix helps you adapt any easier. It also doesn't surprise me that a plate of broccoli, a mug of tea with a small hit of honey and three diet sodas for a period of 24 hours (counting the time you were sleeping and not eating into the period between your last intake of serious protein and food) leaves you feeling no or low energy. I'd be wiped out, too. I definitely have to eat regularly to maintain my active metabolism.

.Some (possiable a lot more than some) of my energy problem also maybe autoimmune related and I just don't want to admit it, because there is a lot less I can do about it than if it is food related. I am having a really hard time lately accepting my low energy levels and pain. I really want there to be a dietery solution, because then it is something I can do something about and have controal over it. I realize however, it is possiable that the best diet in the world isn't going to fix me, as much as I want it to. And that it is possiable that my up and down energy levels are due to disease issues that are beyond my controal, as much as I don't want to belive that.

I am going to however continue with all the great suggestions here and strive to make my diet as ideas as possiable. Because even if my energy levels are not as directly tied to my diet as I would like to belive, I know that having a healty diet is going to be one of the most important things I can do for health long term.

I am sorry, I am going on and on.

As for eating out when low carb and gluten free...pick better restaurants. Seriously. There's no gluten added to fried, poached or boiled eggs. I've ordered and gotten unsauced grilled boneless chicken breast, grilled steak, grilled seafood, grilled pork, etc. in restaurants all over the Eastern

.I will deffinatly keep this in mind. We are often out in "Hickville" usa, like Iola Wisconsin and there is only one restraunt within 20 miles. Atleast at one little restraunt we go to I am able to talk to the owner / chef and I know that the food is gluten free, but it can be more challanging to get stuff that is low carb, but it is doable if I am willing to eat just a plain burger.

seaboard--you just have to ask. Get the salad bar, and put on your raw greens some nuts, some shredded cheese, the hard boiled eggs. I know how difficult it can be to eat a special diet when you're in a restaurant, but I also know that it's completely possible. So don't fall into the trap of 'I don't have time to plan.' Jamie, if you want to succeed at this, you don't have time NOT to plan...![/quote]

.Your exactly right, I have to plan more, and bring more of my own food from home. I have so much great food at home from raw cheeses to pasture raised organic meats, I just need to figure out how to plan better, including eating more nuts and more protein powders when necessary.

The nut butters are kind of fun. I have had a bit of them on a little bit of low carb ice cream, and it was really good. I got several kinds, Mac butter, Almond butter, Cashew butter, and thini butter. I have only tired the mac butter so far, and it is really tastey.

Thanks again for all your help and paitents with me. Atleast to me, everything feels about twice as hard to do since I have a autoimmune disorder, and I guess I shouldn't expect changing my diet to be much easier than anything else in my life. I am deffinatly going to stay with it, it just takes a lot of energy. I so look forward to the point when my dietary changes start to feel more reawrding in terms of health improvments. As of now, my dietary changes feel like, I know I am eating better, and I am glad I am eating better (I am reffering not only to my more recent adoption of eating PP but my last year or so of eating organic foods) but I just don't feel much in the way of a physical health imporvment yet. I (as this discussion was based on) even have felt like my already low energy level was a lower. :-)

Thanks again
Jamie

[jamiedolan]

I went to walmart last night, and I found a couple different brands of protein bars there that I had not seen before at the other stores. I found 4 bars that were free of wheat (however they were processed in a facility that does process wheat). They had 2 to 3 carbs each. They were heavily sweetened with sugar alcohols, which I normally avoid if I can. I got one of each of the 3 kinds to try. I ate one last night and it tasted fine. It did upset my stomach a little bit, but not too terriably badly.

I also found some hemp based tortia shells today with 10 grams of protein and only 2 ECC in each one. They are a good size, they look like the standard wheat based soft taco shells you would get. They were very expensive, but I got some and am going to try them for dinner tonight.

Thanks

Jamie

[Anniesnan]

.Some (possiable a lot more than some) of my energy problem also maybe autoimmune related and I just don't want to admit it, because there is a lot less I can do about it than if it is food related. I am having a really hard time lately accepting my low energy levels and pain. I really want there to be a dietery solution, because then it is something I can do something about and have controal over it. I realize however, it is possiable that the best diet in the world isn't going to fix me, as much as I want it to. And that it is possiable that my up and down energy levels are due to disease issues that are beyond my controal, as much as I don't want to belive that.

I am going to however continue with all the great suggestions here and strive to make my diet as ideas as possiable. Because even if my energy levels are not as directly tied to my diet as I would like to belive, I know that having a healty diet is going to be one of the most important things I can do for health long term.

I am sorry, I am going on and on.



your energy level could be autoimmune related, but, as someone else (Gaelen?) said, it isn't surprising that you would have no energy when all you had eaten was a plate of broccoli. While a small number of people might be able to function, no one is going to be functioning at optimum level on next to nothing.

I have breakfast every morning, even when, like this morning, I had no appetite and my nose was stuffed up so much I can't smell a thing.
IF I get up at 3 AM for a very early day, I have breakfast before I leave the house. Otherwise, I'm like a newborn kitten.
think of your body as if it was a machine - you HAVE to fuel it. If you didn't ADD energy to your car (however it is powered), it won't run. If we feed our bodies crap, they'll run, but not well.

and, truly, salmon is gross! I can't choke it down. I don't like any of the more flavorful fishes (or meats). But halibut or (tilapia - although it's all farm raised, I think) or any of the soles are good. As for tuna - for me, if it's not Bumble Bee white, I can't choke that down, either.

good luck!

[Karole]

Jamie on the tuna front-- in the past I have had to force myself to eat it too, but Walmart has some that has garlic and another one that has lemon in it. I think it is Starkist but I'm not absolutely certain. I can eat it right out of the can even. It, of course, is more expensive, but not really terrible. I keep trying to eat fish because I know it is so good for me.

Keep trying and I hope you find something that will make you feel better.