Leg & Foot Cramps

[razgarcia]

I've been PP'ing now for about a year and have lost close to 50 lbs (I'm male, 57, 5'10", and currently weigh 173 lbs). On a typical day I consume about 30 ECC/day, 174 g protein (40%), and 103 g fat (49%). This is my first time to use the forum.

My problem is nighttime calf & foot cramps. These sometimes occur when I first lie down but mostly I wake up in the middle of the night with a pain in my lower extremities. The only "fix" is to get up and walk around a bit and then lie down again very still and hope to catch some Z's.

Now, I first dabbled with low-carbing a couple of years ago and that's when I first noticed the problem. My doctor prescribed quinine and it provided some relief. As I increased my carb intake I noticed that the problem stopped. But lately, and after a year of starting PP, it has returned with a vengeance.

I Googled this info yesterday and apparently I'm not alone (it's always good to know others share my misery). There was a site warning against the use of quinine for this problem and that physicians are now advised not to prescribe it any more. Another site recommended calcium @ 1,200 mg, magnesium @ 400 mg, and potassium @ 100 mg just before bedtime. I went down to Walgreens and picked up the stuff as close as possible to the recommended dosage (the magnesium came in 250 mg tablets) and took all three pills.

An hour later as I laid down to sleep I had major cramps. But then I noticed that I slept through the night w/o any pain and woke up w/o further symptoms (although after working out three hours later I noticed some slight cramping while putting on my shoes). So my conclusion is that this concoction seems to work.

But is this dosage safe? Is it primarily the magnesium I need and not the calcium (I've already experienced two kidney stones in my lifetime--1974 and 2004--not my idea of a good time)? Is there a better remedy?

Your comments and suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you.

[Songwriter]

First, I, personally, would not buy supplements at Walgreens or any place they are 'cheap.' Maybe you'll get lucky and they'll be decent quality.

It's a very common problem, almost to be expected, maybe. Doing low carb. I get them too. I would think that potassium would be the most important. Magnesium, second. I think they say to ony take a mag that ends in "ate." Not oxide. Calcium can't hurt and I've seen that mentioned.

I suppose drinking water should help.

Good luck, they are a bummer. I've boosted my potassium after I asked my pharmacist if my BP med would have any problem (retaining too much potassium... I read that this could be a problem) and he said my Lisinopril should give no problem in that regard. I'm trying to figure out how much potassium now. Dr. Eades is big on magnesium.

[Songwriter]

BTW, anyone know... I would think paleo man would not suffer from cramps, it seems unnatural. What's going on?

[Gaelen]

Paleolithic man would have gotten adequate potassium from his (unfiltered) drinking water and his food--we don't. ;)

[Mitra]

I get cramps or restless legs occasionally, and I generally take potassium and magnesium (citrate) when it happens, but it usually happens just as a one-off anyway, and goes away even if I don't take anything, so I've never been able to confirm that the supps have any effect. The times when it happens seem to be when I've just dropped my carbs; when the weather's hot and I'm sweating more than usual; and pre-menstrually. Getting up and walking about usually helps in the short term.

[razgarcia]

Thank you for your recommendations. I'll check the magnesium to make sure it's the "citrate" variety.

[Songwriter]

Thank you for your recommendations. I'll check the magnesium to make sure it's the "citrate" variety.

I don't know if it has to be citrate, just something ending in 'ate.' Maybe this means 'chelated.' Anyone?

[maxlharris]

The recommendation is for Malate if you can find it, Citrate if you cannot. Chelated is something different. It makes em more digestible. But if you're getting Mag Mal or Mag Cit, it's 99% likely to be chelated as well.

On the cramps, potassium should do it.
Paleo man ate organ meats + muscle meats. Organ meats have it.
Paleo man also used sea salt and other natural salts when using such things. The trace minerals in sea salt (including potassium) are great and better than the NaCl you buy in jars of itty cubes.

[Mal Lady]

When I was on the PP the first time, I increasingly had worse amd worse calf and toe cramps. I went to the doctor and she ran tests. I found that I was low on potassium and iodine. I was prescribed 40 meq of Potassium Chloride and iodine drops. I take 1600 mg of calcium per day now. At one time, I had charlie horses in both upper thighs, front shins, calves and toes (both pulling up and spreading out) all at the same time and they wouldn't release for as long as 2-3 hours at a time. I was wore out! I also would put salt under my tongue and that would help. But, now that I take the above supplements, I'm fine. You can have complications from taking too much potassium. It would have to be huge amounts, but, potassium chloride is used to put prisoners to death to stop their heart. I had a pharmacist go spastice because I was taking 9 over the counter potassium at a time. But, tests revealed that I was very low (rare) and low iodine (even more rare).

Please go to your doctor and have them run these tests before adding supplements beyond what's on the bottle or if cramps persist.

Mal Lady:eek::tongue:

[razgarcia]

If the symptoms persist I will definitely visit our family physician. But the relief I experienced during the night last night after taking the 1,200 mg of calcium, 250 mg of magnesium, and 99 mg of potassium gives me hope.

Also, after reading some of the other comments it seems evident to me that I am low on some of these minerals. I hate taking supplements and would rather derive all of my nutritional needs for the foods I eat, but this does not seem possible.

I do take a Centrum Silver each day just to cover all my bases. But after looking over the list of vitamins/minerals and dosages of each it's clear that it short on some stuff.

Thanks again.

[Songwriter]

I reserve the right to be wrong but I would be cautious taking relatively cheap supplements. To me, cheap supplements (compared to the competition) just are not worth taking the risk.

For instance, I take fish oil. I can buy el cheapo fish oil for $8 or supposedly high quality fish oil for $20. I buy the $20 product. For one thing, there is no aftertaste.

As for just, in general, I just think that supplements sold by the typical retail store... I figure they sell you garbage. For instance, wherever companies can scrimp on a cheaper ingredient to lower the overall price, they will. I'd bet that magnesium oxide is cheaper than magnesium malate.

But as I said, I don't have any data to back me up on most of this. I just think that if most companies can use cheap stuff, they will. The exceptions are the companies that have good reputations. I think that in general, you get what you pay for.

I trust Dr. Eades, and one thing he did say is that pretty much all Vitamin D is the same and it's cheap. So, I didn't worry about that one. But he did say he was looking for a grade that he knew he could recommend.

I would be wary of any supplement sold by Wal-mart or any chain store. I didn't say they are automatically selling garbage, I'd just beware.

If anyone thinks I'm all wet on that, I'd be interested in your opinion.

[maxlharris]

You read a lot on this, going back and forth. Most of the folks who tell you not to buy cheapos generally have financial interest. Most of the folks (like Zorba Pasteur) who tell you that expensive ones are a rip off, have no financial stake. You can draw your own conclusions.

FWIW: I would buy cheap multivitamins and basic vitamins. For things that are a little exotic (fish oil), relatively new (CoQ10), minerals that need chelation (Magnesium for instance), I'd buy expensive. But if you're blowing big money on a multi or Vitamin D, you're blowing money that you probably don't need to. This all goes out the window if you have allergies.

PS- I don't buy anything at Wal*Mart, so it wouldn't have dawned on me that people are getting their vitamins there. But if they sell Centrum in the 1000 pack, why not?

[bluejay111]

You don't always get what you pay for. Just because it costs more doesn't necessarily mean it is better. Just watched a morning show a couple of weeks ago that showed the ingredients for expensive cosmetics were the same as the cheaper brands and in some cases the cheaper brands worked better. I thought the best one was Gray Goose vodka that cost twenty some dollars a bottle. When tested it was made up from the same stuff the cheapest was made from. So your paying extra for the name and hype.

[Songwriter]

You don't always get what you pay for. Just because it costs more doesn't necessarily mean it is better. Just watched a morning show a couple of weeks ago that showed the ingredients for expensive cosmetics were the same as the cheaper brands and in some cases the cheaper brands worked better. I thought the best one was Gray Goose vodka that cost twenty some dollars a bottle. When tested it was made up from the same stuff the cheapest was made from. So your paying extra for the name and hype.

That's why I said "The exceptions are the companies with good reputations." Although, how does one REALLY know. I guess you can't.

[razgarcia]

Where can one find information on the differences between derivative types of mineral supplements? For instance, magnesium oxide vs. magnesium citrate or magnesium glutamate or magnesium whatever-ate. What would be more effective, safer, and so forth. Same also for varieties of potassium and calcium. I have Googled this to death and come up with nothing of substance.

Your assistance would be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

[Songwriter]

Where can one find information on the differences between derivative types of mineral supplements? For instance, magnesium oxide vs. magnesium citrate or magnesium glutamate or magnesium whatever-ate. What would be more effective, safer, and so forth. Same also for varieties of potassium and calcium. I have Googled this to death and come up with nothing of substance.

Your assistance would be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

Sorry but I don't know of anything you can do other than read a lot. It will take months/years to arrive at a conclusion that you trust. Also, there is no one person who knows what is best... these are opinions. But you have to learn to trust someone (which takes time). I trust Dr. Eades. If he says such and such about a product, I believe him.

Participating in forums such as this (over many months) will help you.