Maintenance Weekly 10th April - Survivor's Guilt?

[banshee]

I couldn't find a quote that fully applied to what I'm trying to convey here, but here are the parts of the definition of "guilt" that I think apply:
Guilt is:
Feeling of responsibility for negative circumstances that have befallen yourself or others.
Sense of remorse for thoughts, feelings, or attitudes that were or are negative, uncomplimentary, or non-accepting concerning yourself or others.
Feeling of obligation for not pleasing, not helping, or not placating another.
Accepting of responsibility for someone else's misfortune or problem because it bothers you to see that person suffer.
Now, why am I talking about guilt in a forum about maintenance? The other day I had an experience that made me start thinking about this. I've lost 70 pounds of fat on PP, and have successfully maintained that loss for over 2 years. At work, there's a guy working on the same floor as me that is extremely obese. He needs a cane to walk, and I pass him in the halls a lot.

Whenever I see him, I have the following thoughts:

"That could have been me if I had continued to gain weight."
"I wish I could talk to him about how much low-carb has helped me"
"I'm glad that I found out how to keep myself from going down that road."
"I shouldn't be feeling happy about that while watching his problems"In essence, I feel happy that I've managed to succeed with my weight loss, and then I feel guilty that I'm feeling that while watching this guy struggle to get down the hallway.

The only correlation I could make for this feeling was "survivor's guilt", although obviously it isn't as bad as true survivor's guilt. I also found a reference to "content guilt" on a page about survivor's guilt, which states that "Content guilt, as contrasted with existential survival guilt, is a result of a person's having done something to ensure his or her survival." We have "survived" the experience of being overweight and done what is necessary to overcome it, and now we have to deal with the fact that many many other people are never going to achieve the success that we have.

While I certainly will talk about how I lost weight with anyone who asks, I don't think it's appropriate to talk about weight loss with obese people if they don't approach first. I know that when I was overweight, my dad would constantly lecture me about it, to the point where he would literally have me in tears, but it certainly didn't help me to lose weight. In fact, it actually had the opposite effect. He would make me so mad, I wouldn't want to lose weight because I knew that would make him upset. (And it still makes me mad that now that I've lost the weight, he actually takes the credit for it! :mad:) But I'm getting off-topic...

Anyway, I thought we could talk this week about how being successful at weight loss can bring about feeling of helplessness and guilt when you see people who clearly are not having success with getting to or being a healthy weight. What thoughts do you have when you see other overweight or obese individuals? How do you handle your thoughts and feelings?

For me, I try to remind myself that the only person I can truly make decisions for is myself. I can make suggestions if someone asks for help, but I can't make the decisions for that person. I have a friend who wanted to lose weight and asked me to help her "do low-carb", but every suggestion I made was met with "I can't give that up! I can't live without that food!" or some such. Clearly, she wasn't really ready or willing to commit herself to this way of eating.

I also try to remember that my being thin isn't "hurting" overweight and obese people. My feelings don't have some mystical power to reach out and make another person feel upset or ashamed, and there's nothing wrong with my being thankful that I'm no longer obese.

Anyone else want to comment?

[Viking Dan]

While I certainly will talk about how I lost weight with anyone who asks, I don't think it's appropriate to talk about weight loss with obese people if they don't approach first.

Yeah. I'd lean towards not bothering. Some of these people get very defensive/angry (like alcoholics) when you bring up their particular addiction.

[Ottawa]

Mary, you have hit the nail on the head.

· "That could have been me if I had continued to gain weight."
· "I wish I could talk to him about how much low-carb has helped me"
· "I'm glad that I found out how to keep myself from going down that road."
· "I shouldn't be feeling happy about that while watching his problems"

I have approached several obese/diabetic people, especially earlier on in the program while still reveling in the “euphoria” that you have when you are going through the early part of this program, feeling healthier and watching those pounds peel away.
Of the many people that I approached only four were interested in the program and two never gave it a try. The other two had incredible results and one slipped earlier this year and has not come back. Two diabetic people actually said they would not give up the toast and jam for anything but part of this may come from anger as their body begins to fail them.

I find that if I don’t bring it up in some way I have missed an opportunity that they desperately need. Whether they take the carrot or not, the offer was made. I’m careful not to embarrass them and know them enough that it will not offend but whether I would have accepted the advice when I was grossly overweight or not, I definitely would have wanted someone to say they knew of way to get my health back.

[Mitra]

It's an interesting subject, Mary. I take the same approach as you, and don't give advice unless I'm asked, but I also feel bad about it. I don't want to made other people's choices for them, but I'd like to think they have the information to make an informed choice - and I suspect they usually don't have that knowledge. Like Randy, I'm amazed that people seem utterly unwilling to contemplate making any changes, even when they know that they could significantly improve their health.

[realruth]

Yep...I think we all have this to some extent.

I try to put a little dash of PP in with things when people ask me about certain foods available here on the Island.

Many people who come here are diabetics (age of travellers mostly 60 plus)

They want to know which is the best dessert to have.....UM NONE!
They all want to know where the fresh fruit is ( we do not have any imported fruit or veges except limited amounts of potato and onion), because they have several servings every day ...WHY ?...because it's good for you and the dietician said so.

I also look at others and think OMG that was me......Saw a lady yesterday walking down the road ...only saw fer back view on...the bump bump of her butt going up and down as she took each step reminded me very forcfully of how I must have looked to others....and did give me a bit of that guilt feeling

[Missy]

What an interesting subject. I hope you don't mind me jumping in, I'm not at maintentance. Personally, I am one of those people that your talking about...and the only thing I can add is that it's what Ottawa mentioned, you can lend a carrot to those of us but it's ultimately ONLY up to them to take it.

Me, for example, my Dr. recommended this program to me a year or so ago....but for many reasons, I wasn't "ready" even though I proclaimed often that "I want this weight off!"....Perhaps it's the definance factor, bull headed, or no, I can do it...MY WAY! that I had to first experience, and not find any lasting success BEFORE I finally gave myself over to listening to this woe.

Carbohydrates are a "safety blanket"...and besides they taste good. It's all things "good"...and some of us just can't easily give them up because it feels like it's the end of the world. It's the easier choice. Carbs are easy. The decision to leave them behind is the most difficult.

Prior to me even joining this forum, I spent a week in a BAD MOOD because I knew that I had finally arrived at this threshhold...and I knew what the cost to me was going to be in things I love. But, if you don't pass through that phase...and not "get it" then more then likely your not going to embrace this lifestyle for long.

I'm very sorry that your having these feelings. From the perspective of a newly converting person....remember just as you chose for yourself...they have to chose for themselves. You never know WHEN that "seed" you planted may begin to sprout.

It's been a year or more since my Dr. planted that seed, and finally I'm ready to accept the message.

Not to mention that "we" in inundated with so much opposing information of what's good, what's bad...it can make your head spin. But, you just being an example of success speaks volumes. Some will listen.

[Shadow]

Wow, Missy, what a great insight to give us :)! Thank you - and please, feel free to join us any time :D!

Mary - Good thoughts for the week! I'm afraid I haven't been around much but I do totally understand what you (and all here) have said. For me, I carry a lot of guilt when I think about another's weight. Yes, I'd like to "save the world" by sharing the plan - but then part of me thinks that is simply arrogance talking. And what right have I to intercede in anyone's life when I would never have (and didn't) accept any advice myself. See what I mean :rolleyes:? Plus - if I had a perfect body, I'd be more willing to share with others - but when I still have moments of discontentment with what my body has ended up to be even after reaching maintenance - I feel very bad for even thinking about what someone else looks like. I never used to notice other people and their weight - but now I do and that makes me feel bad :o.

Okay - rushing to catch up here and hopefully making some sense :p.....

[banshee]

Like Shadow said, we welcome insights from everyone to the board in any of the forums if a thread sparks your interest. The categories are mainly to help people focus their attention in the areas that interest them, but are definitely not intended to exclude anyone.

I mostly was posting this week's thread because the situation really made me think about why I was feeling guilty, and I thought others might find the topic of interest. I also wondered if this type of thing might not be one of the reasons why some people fail and regain the weight - it's easier than dealing with all of the contradictory feelings that come with the weight loss.

[Shadow]

Mary - I definitely think you have a point. Heck, I "failed" every other weight loss I ever accomplished in life so I definitely understand how the feelings of success can easily derail someone! Of course, another thing that lead to my downfall was that the eating I did was something I couldn't maintain for life. So I am even more than doubly thankful for this WOE :D! And of course, still very leery about being in maintenance now - kind of like I'm afraid to "count my chickens", ya know :rolleyes:?

[Mitra]

Missy, it's already been said, but you're very welcome to join in: the heading means that it's an area to talk about maintenance, not that you have to be at maintenance to post here.

Mary, your comment about "the contradictory feelings that come with weight loss" suggests the subjects for many discussions! One thing that I felt guilty about (we're so good at guilt, aren't we?) was that before I lost the weight I was thinking along the lines of accepting that being young and beautiful didn't matter, and I needed to come to terms with not being a fashionable size/shape &c. By losing weight, while I won't claim it's given me youth or beauty, I have the feeling that I just avoided dealing with those mental/emotional issues of caring about how I looked (not in the sense of taking care of myself, but of wanting to have a particular physical appearance).

[banshee]

Mitra,

I think that's another area that is great for discussion. So many people "assume" that when they lose the weight, they'll find themselves with the "perfect body", but those of us in maintenance know it just ain't so! (I think at least part of that expectation has been fed to us through all those weight loss commercials!) We all still have "issues" to deal with regarding our self-image, whether physical or mental, and losing weight doesn't magically make them disappear.

[SherryJ]

I LOVE this discussion - whew!

Interesting thoughts, Janet... I was driving home yesterday, and saw two elderly ladies pass me going the other way. My FIRST thought was "Now, they look happy, and... "how" little old ladies are "supposed" to look"!!!

"What was that?!?!?!?" I thought!!! I then fast forwarded 40 years, and took a picture of ME in that car... somewhat wrinkled (I've always had "good skin"! :p ), but NOT fat!

I also had a conversation with my MIL about this the other day... she's about to lose her husband (cancer), and is about to turn 65 this summer. She said, "Am I not at the point in my life where I don't HAVE to worry about this any more?!?!!?" (She low carbs...) I said, very quietly, "Yes, Mom, but is that what you want..." She didn't have an answer for that...

Sherry

[Shadow]

So many people "assume" that when they lose the weight, they'll find themselves with the "perfect body", but those of us in maintenance know it just ain't so! (I think at least part of that expectation has been fed to us through all those weight loss commercials!) We all still have "issues" to deal with regarding our self-image, whether physical or mental, and losing weight doesn't magically make them disappear.
Amen, Mary!!!! I think I was the first in line to think that reaching my goal weight would somehow miraculously revamp the body I've always had even though common sense and past experience have always told me otherwise :rolleyes:!

[Mitra]

My "issue" here is slightly different: it's that I am now happy with my body, but I feel that by changing my body rather than my attitude, I haven't actually dealt with my need to look a certain way.

[backpacker]

I suffer from the same "guilt" from time to time. I have many friends that are overweight, and a few that are obese. One very good friend of mine is probably around 400 pounds. He's turning 50 this year, and I often wonder how long until his weight ends his life.

I've thought about bringing up PP to him, but I don't and I feel some type of "guilt" surrounding my success, and that I should share it. Honestly, he knows how big he is, and the last thing he want's is a 185 pound guy who's 20 years younger telling him how to loose weight. Granted I used to be 45 pounds bigger, that's still a far cry from his size. There is no way he hasn't heard of low carb, and I'd be he's even given it a shot. So what do I do? I be the best friend I can in any other way. The subject of weight will never come out of my mouth unsolicited.

Regarding how you look at goal weight... I thought I'd be leaner at 185 than I am, so I'm going to start lifting weights. :)

[Viking Dan]

Jimmy Moore's latest blog touches on this subject:
Confronting The Obese About Their Weight (http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2006/05/confronting-obese-about-their-weight.html)

[Gabriel Guzman]

Interesting discussion! I'm not sure if what I read from your words is actual 'guilt', even though I may have gone through your same feelings in the past. I too see many people that are obese and before I came to the US I saw many that were 'morbid' obese because I had some relation with a weight loss clinic when I was in Sweden. I remember having some of your same thoughts, Mary, but my views have change since. The way I see it now, I don't think is guilt but 'compasion' what is been described... empathy. We've develop an ability to sort of put ourselves in other people's shoes, mainly because we've been there and we've came out of it.

Randy wrote once in the old board that ...only when the pain of remaning the same is bigger than the pain of change, then people do change... Quite true. If I were a physician recommending a diabetic to engorge with carbohydrates because that's the way to go, even though the evidence flies in the face of such recommendations, then I would feel guilty. Of course, that is if I was a concerned, unbiased and informed physician.

I think what we feel now is the sadness of knowing that for those we see suffering of what we once did or still do, the route to regaining our health is right there, at their grasp... if they could only listen and give it a fair, decisive shot... But, experience also has taught us to respect people's decisions. I learned that some years ago with one of my best friends who used to be morbid obese. I didn't know about PP back then and the only kind of help I had was my understanding. I realized that I was the only one she reached for because I never judged her and always loved her as the friend she was. I just wish I knew about PP then. She somehow learned about Overeaters Annonymous and joined their meetings and that worked for her. In one of my visits back from Sweden, she'd been on OA for maybe a year and a half and she'd lost all the weight she gained plus more! The spartan approached worked for her and 'anchored' her, which was probably what she needed. We discussed about PP in a few occasions but I realized she had embraced OA almost to a religious level and I've learned that I can't discussed facts or science or even evidence under that frame of mind so I just did what I did before she went to OA... I was just her friend and listened how going through that grueling time had given her a new sense of empowerment and self confidence.

My point is that maybe it isn't guilt but a deep sense of compasion what we feel as we've developed a high level of empathy towards those that go through what we did or still are. The difference is that we're now conquering it and would like them to join.

[cmcole]

I feel sad to see families with shopping cards loaded with all the "standard" fare that the advertisers say we should be feeding our children.

Even my husband, who does not eat LC, but has become more consciencious about his eating habits, notices the distinction between our grocery order and most of the rest.

It is sad to see children being bribed by offers of candy and other "treats" just to be good in the supermarket.

So, guilt may not be my underlying feeling, but sadness, and sympathy. Hopefully, it does not turn into prejudice, whereby I feel that I'm better than the rest of the population, for choosing a healthier way of eating.

I even shake my head at the low fat crowd, who obviously stock up on things that are consider "low" or "no" fat, thinking they are doing themselves a favour, when they are not (but that's another basket full of groceries).

[Missy]

This thread has been one that I recall contributing early on as I joined this forum...(like that's a MILLION YEARS AGO OR SOMETHING? LOL :rolleyes: ).....and I had a hard time imagining the "guilt" aspect of it that you had orginally described Mary...but Gabe, you helped me understand what I was thinking but not putting words too...compassion and empathy!!! Yep, those are the ones.

I have parents that I wish to "help" but because I'm currently still overweight, I KNOW that getting the message accrossed has to be delivered JUST RIGHT...or it's useless. Personally, I know in my heart that I won't ever get my parents to change...and I'm not going to beat myself up over it...but I am committed to staying the course, and therefore "setting an example"....occasionally dropping "seeds" for thought into conversations IF and when my mother wishes to ask me, then I'll explain further. It's up to her to chose.

I'm not going to sit in judgement of them for not choosing though...I know NOW the strong effect and control sugar has...and sometimes, for some people it's just to overwhelming to change. I know what it's taken in ME to do so.

On the OTHER side of the arguement, I have a sister and bil who'm are following South Beach...and although I am happy for their success that seems to be working for them...I'm also have to address the "differences" between the plans...and THAT can feel sometimes like it's too major of a moutain to climb. I'm just keeping my head down, learning for myself...and defending it to no one...yet. :D

I have vowed to myself...that I'm not going to "evangelise" my experience on ANYONE other then walking the walk...and BE the example. If they ask....then I'll share.

However, IF they happen to ASK about the LLPL book at the gym where I work out....AND they see that it's all coming together for me....that certainly does give me a platform to work from! However, something tells me that if I don't speak out about it alot, I may find more people interested in how I'm achieving my success! Either way, I'm fine with it.

[Viking Dan]

However, IF they happen to ASK about the LLPL book at the gym where I work out....

The LLPL book? :confused:

[Missy]

oops!!!!:eek: YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT!!!!:p

er....no...wait! That stands for...Lovely Lynn's Protein Livin book that I'm going to author one day!!!! :D

[SherryJ]

GO FOR IT, Lovely Lynn!!!

Sherry