How to gain weight?

[tileman]

I'm a type2 diabetic. I'm 5' 10" at 155 lbs. I want to gain weight. I want to bodybuild. I have a habit of snacking at night and I get bored eating all protein. I'm on 1500 mg glucophage at night. My A1c was 7.5.

As far as exercise is concerned. I get some with my job as a tile contractor. I don't want to do cardio, because it will burn too many calories and I will lose more weight.:confused:

Thanks

[Gaelen]

Hi, tileman.
Without knowing more about what you actually eat, the way to 'maintain' for me is to increase my carb intake to transition/maintenance levels (anywhere from 55g/day to up to the number of carb grams equal to my recommended protein gram minimums, about 85g/day.) I get the increased carbs from fruit and certain veggies (hard-shell squash, the occasional sweet potato, more tomatoes, peas, lentils, small amounts of lima beans and other types of beans, etc.) and make sure to keep my fat intake up (butter, cheese, nuts, seeds, full-fat dairy and fatty fishes/shellfish). If you can tolerate those foods (no allergies) and your blood glucose stays where it belongs, and your lipid profile holds steady, that should keep you at a healthier weight while giving you the best benefits of controlling your carbs--remember, this is a controlled carb way of eating, not a no-carb way of eating. Hope that helps--welcome in!

[tileman]

Thank You. I'll give that a try..:)

[tileman]

Gaelen,

I haven't really done anything diet wise since the last post. Yesterday I woke up with bs level at 220.

I need to get started. Where on this site should I go? I have the PP book, but it talks about losing weight. I don't want to lose any. So what do you suggest?:)

[Mitra]

Tileman, I'd suggest making sure that you get plenty of calories - include some of the high fat foods like nuts, cheese, sausage, cream that those who need to lose weight have to limit.

The book Life Without Bread, by Lutz and Allen includes photographs of a man who had never been able to gain weight until he started to eat low carb (that book recommends 72g per day). Dr Mike mentioned it in a comment on his blog recently: "I love how he uses the low-carb diet not just for weight loss, but for weight gain as well in those who have had metabolic problems.". Although the PP book talks a lot about losing weight (because most people want/need to), there are references to those who have a normal weight but need to watch their carbs to control blood sugar or lipids.

You could post any questions/comments on your progress in the PP lifestyle section - or somewhere else if you see a spot that seems to fit.

Keep us posted.

[Gaelen]

Tileman, what Mitra said.
-- Figure out your daily minimum protein requirement and make sure that you get at least that much protein daily.
-- Keep your effective carbs under around 40g per day (since you have blood sugar issues) and keep them there until your blood sugar issues and lipid profiles are normal.
-- make sure to take in plenty of fats (cheeses, nuts, good oils, sausages, etc.), and don't worry about calorie intake (except to make sure that you don't ever let yourself get hungry.)

Hope that does the trick for you; keep us posted!

[tileman]

Thank You so much! I'll keep you posted.:)

[Borgesian]

Hello, Tileman,

I have the same problem with weight as you. I am a type 2 diabetic, controlling it with diet and exercise, only. BGLs stay usually below 102 at all times (FBGLs are less than 92 most days).

I was diagnosed on January. My weight then was 77 kilos. I started dieting, and exercising a lot (burning 800+ calories in excess per day). Today my weight is 68.4 kilos, and I do not want to get it any lower. Therefore, I have cut back the amount of exercise, burning aprox 3150 calories per day in total, and increased my food intake.

I believe that there is a balance to be achieved between carb intake and calories. I suspect that if I eat more calories than needed by my body, and if my body has unused glucose floating around, I will see an increase of my BGLs and of lack of glucose control in the following days (I am curently testing this theory).

The problem, then, is to eat a lot, but not a lot of carbs, and without exceeding the amount of calories that my body has burned during the day. I try to achieve this by eating a lot of almonds, hazelnuts, meat, olive oil and avocados. I have to be careful with cheese, though, since small amounts pack a lot of calories. Fitday is a good tracking software that has helped me a lot to know what and how much of it I eat.

I might be able to maintain my weight with this approach, and I might even develop muscle, to increase it. But I will know the latter for sure only in a couple of weeks.

I will keep you posted.

Regards,
Borgesian

[Larry Chanin]

I'm a type2 diabetic. I'm 5' 10" at 155 lbs. I want to gain weight. I want to bodybuild. I have a habit of snacking at night and I get bored eating all protein. I'm on 1500 mg glucophage at night. My A1c was 7.5.

As far as exercise is concerned. I get some with my job as a tile contractor. I don't want to do cardio, because it will burn too many calories and I will lose more weight.:confused:

Thanks

Hi tileman,

I'm also a thin type 2 diabetic attempting to SAFELY gain MUSCLE weight. I'm 59 years old, 6'0" and weigh 157 pounds. I'm taking 1000 mg of Metformin XR (generic version of Glucophage), 500 mg in the morning and 500 mg with dinner. My last hemoglobin A1C was 5.7.

Last year I faced a bout with colon cancer and lost quite a bit of muscle weight, going down to 144 pounds. Since my recovery I've been researching how to safely gain muscle weight without jeapordizing my fairly well controlled blood glucose levels. (Morning fasting levels are in the 104-127 range.)

I should emphasize that my primary goal in gaining lean body weight is to better control my blood glucose levels, not to look like a bodybuilder. In theory, the more muscle weight you have, the higher your metabolism, and the more excess glucose your body burns off.

However, as thin diabetics its very important how we go about gaining weight. I could easily gain weight by staying a couch potato and eating like there was no tommorrow without regard to carbohydrates and fats, but that would produce a number of unhealthy side-effects. First, it would result in the addition of Body Fat, which would produce just the opposite of the desired objective, that is it would result in increased insulin resistance, and second the high glycemic foods would increase blood glucose levels.

Nevertheless, at the risk of stating the obvious, the only way to gain any type of increased weight (fat or muscle) is to have our net caloric intake exceed our daily calories burned due to body functions and exercise. Of course as we increase our overall caloric intake, we must increase our blood glucose monitoring. I take my levels at least twice a day or more. In the morning and before a meal. This way if the level is too high from the previous meal I can elect to increase my medication dosage. (So far this has not been neccessary.)

A technique that is beneficial to bodybuilders with normal metabolisms as well as diabetics, is to eat 5 or more smaller meals per day. This helps get the necessary calories, but smooths out the blood sugar spike.

As thin diabetics we have to gradually gain weight and we have to make sure that the added weight is mostly muscle weight. My objective is to add weight at the rate of no more than 1/2 pound per week. To ensure that the increased body weight is muscle weight, I've purchased a Body Fat caliper. With this device you pinch the skin in various parts of your body, measure the thickness and the device automatically calculates your Percent Body Fat based on your gender and age. So the objective is to increase body weight, while maintaining or lowering our percent Body Fat.

Needless to say, to do this more than eating "right" is involved. We need weight training. I've joined one of those HealthPlexes. Its a gym with very modern equipment run by a local hospital. So I'm pumping iron three or four days a week and carefully watching my progress. I do a little "cardio" exercise on an eliptical machine as a warm-up to my weight lifting. It is very low impact, and it is very short duration and very intense. I never run more than a mile. Lately I've been trying 400 meter sprints. I think we should stay away from the conventional long duration, low to medium intensity cardio workouts unless we want to continue to look like runners. ;) (I guess some low intensity cardio is okay temporarily if we have a little extra fat around the waist that we're trying to get rid of before going for more weight gain.)

Finally, we have to figure out the best proportion and types of foods to eat. It was my quest to answer this question that led me to this forum. Here's what I've figured out so far. As diabetics we know we have to stay away from too many high glycemic carbohydrates because it spikes our blood sugars. Likewise, we know eating too much of the wrong types of fats is not good for anyone, especially diabetics.

What I haven't figured out is how do proteins fit in for diabetics? If I was a bodybuilder with a normal metabolism, 20% or more of total caloric intake could come from proteins without worrying about health issues. However, as a diabetic there are two issues that I've trying to get an answer to from a credible source. Hopefully, some of the experts on this forum will provide some guidance.

First, excess proteins can put a stress on the kidneys, and diabetics are prone to kidney disease. So how much protein would be ideal for a thin, active diabetic, trying to gain weight, with fairly well controlled blood glucose levels? 20%, like the bodybuilders, or less say 10% or 15%?

Here's an other head scratcher for diabetics regarding how much protein to take in their diets. The scientists who devised the Glycemic Index also came up with an other index called the Insulin Index. Instead of measuring how much your blood sugar rises in response to a particular food, it measures how much your insulin rises. It turns out that for most foods the two indicies correlate. That is most foods with a high Glycemic Index also have a high Insulin Index. However, some foods, most notably proteins, have a low Glycemic Index, but a high Insulin Index. This means that although they don't cause a spike in blood sugar, they do cause a spike in insulin. So you say, well that's a good thing because the added Insulin will lower my blood sugar. Perhaps that's true, BUT a number of scientists know that large amounts of insulin in the blool lead to increased insulin resistance which left unchecked leads to full blown diabetes and in the worse case scenario a failure of the pancreas to produce insulin at all.

So these two issues relating to proteins and diabetics have moderated me a bit on going with a high protein diet, like bodybuilders who are also looking to gain muscle weight. However, I do feel that protein should be part of a diabetics' diet the question remains: HOW MUCH?:confused:

Good luck.

Larry

[Larry Chanin]

Hello, Tileman,

I have the same problem with weight as you. I am a type 2 diabetic, controlling it with diet and exercise, only. BGLs stay usually below 102 at all times (FBGLs are less than 92 most days).

I was diagnosed on January. My weight then was 77 kilos. I started dieting, and exercising a lot (burning 800+ calories in excess per day). Today my weight is 68.4 kilos, and I do not want to get it any lower. Therefore, I have cut back the amount of exercise, burning aprox 3150 calories per day in total, and increased my food intake.

I believe that there is a balance to be achieved between carb intake and calories. I suspect that if I eat more calories than needed by my body, and if my body has unused glucose floating around, I will see an increase of my BGLs and of lack of glucose control in the following days (I am curently testing this theory).

The problem, then, is to eat a lot, but not a lot of carbs, and without exceeding the amount of calories that my body has burned during the day. I try to achieve this by eating a lot of almonds, hazelnuts, meat, olive oil and avocados. I have to be careful with cheese, though, since small amounts pack a lot of calories. Fitday is a good tracking software that has helped me a lot to know what and how much of it I eat.

I might be able to maintain my weight with this approach, and I might even develop muscle, to increase it. But I will know the latter for sure only in a couple of weeks.

I will keep you posted.

Regards,
Borgesian

Hi Borgesian,

Your Blood Glucose control is what I aspire to have. It seems to me that if you are maintaining those low levels, which are for all intents normal, without medication, then that is just about the best we diabetics can reasonably hope for. Of course, since diabetes is a progressive disease, we must seriously pursue exercise and diet for the rest of our lives to stave off needing more serious measures as we age.

As I mentioned in my previous posting, there is no way to regain your lost weight without having a caloric surplus. There is simply no way around this fundamental fact. (Conversely, it is also possible that your excellent blood glucose control is as a result of a significant caloric intake deficit for your amount of exercise.)

Knowing that they must have a caloric surplus if they desire more bulk, the question that bodybuilders have been grappling with is how do you go about converting that surplus into muscle rather than fat. In my readings I have found that realistically it is impossible to gain body weight without gaining some fat. The trick is to mostly gain muscle weight with minimum fat weight gain. Conversely, when trying to lose fat weight, the trick is to minimize the loss of muscle while maximizing the loss of fat.

As I understand it to achieve the above requires weight training versus traditional cardio training. So if you are engaged in lots of medium to low intensity cardio, that could be the cause of your weight loss. Furthermore, if you are already thin, it is possible that a good deal of your loss of weight came from muscle weight. A way for you to monitor this in the future is to measure your percent Body Fat as well as body weight.

Obviously, eating the correct proportions of protein, carbohydrates and fats is essential to obtaining a healthy weight gain. Figuring out what they are for each person's unique metabolism seems to be as much an art as science. ;)

These proportion are a real balancing act. For example, there may be a tendancy to minimize our fat intake thinking that we're eating healthy. However, a fairly large percent of the correct fats (Essential Fatty Acids) in our diet seems to be essential for the addition of muscle weight. Even bodybuilders, who are fanatics about minimizing their body fat, realize that a significant portion of their daily caloric intake, ~30%, must come from fats because they provide the building blocks that our body must have to produce hormones necessary for muscle growth.

In summary, if you have found dietary proportions that works for you while maintaining good blood glucose control, I would try adjusting your total caloric intake such that you have a low caloric daily surplus of about 250 calories. This should result in a modest increase in weight of roughly 1/2 pounds per week. Such a small increase usually results in mostly muscle gain when engaged in vigorus weight training. With a small increase in caloric intake and vigorous weight training type exercise, blood glucose control should remain good. Needless to say, if a small increase in caloric intake results in poor blood glucose control, then its time to consult with your doctor.

Good luck.

Larry

[Gaelen]

Welcome, Larry. You posted: What I haven't figured out is how do proteins fit in for diabetics? If I was a bodybuilder with a normal metabolism, 20% or more of total caloric intake could come from proteins without worrying about health issues. However, as a diabetic there are two issues that I've trying to get an answer to from a credible source. Hopefully, some of the experts on this forum will provide some guidance.

First, excess proteins can put a stress on the kidneys, and diabetics are prone to kidney disease. So how much protein would be ideal for a thin, active diabetic, trying to gain weight, with fairly well controlled blood glucose levels? 20%, like the bodybuilders, or less say 10% or 15%? ...

So these two issues relating to proteins and diabetics have moderated me a bit on going with a high protein diet, like bodybuilders who are also looking to gain muscle weight. However, I do feel that protein should be part of a diabetics' diet the question remains: HOW MUCH?

The answer is simple...start with an accurate assessment of your current lean body mass. Water immersion is the most accurate, but doing the measurement methods from the original PP book will also give you a good start. Now figure out your minimum recommended protein intake based on that LBM measurement and the formula in the first PP book. Then take a look at the minimum protein requirement from Protein Power Lifeplan's charts -- chances are the PPLP chart amount is slightly higher than the number you got from the PP book calculations.

That range is your protein minimum, what you need to maintain your current LBM. It's not a "high protein diet," but rather, an adequate protein diet. And far more accurate than coming up with some kind of percentage of total dietary intake for protein, you should know what your body's minimum needs are, and then add a few percentage points to *that* number to slightly increase your protein intake.

As a frame of reference, where a person following PP might be taking in 90-100g of protein as his minimum daily intake, a bodybuilder looking to build lean muscle might easily be taking in 200-250g of protein--more than twice the PP recommended minimum--and far more carb grams than a typical low carber. So before you start to tweak your protein intake, figure out what your minimum truly should be, and scale upwards gradually form that. Hope this helps.

[Larry Chanin]

Welcome, Larry. You posted:

The answer is simple...start with an accurate assessment of your current lean body mass. Water immersion is the most accurate, but doing the measurement methods from the original PP book will also give you a good start. Now figure out your minimum recommended protein intake based on that LBM measurement and the formula in the first PP book. Then take a look at the minimum protein requirement from Protein Power Lifeplan's charts -- chances are the PPLP chart amount is slightly higher than the number you got from the PP book calculations.

That range is your protein minimum, what you need to maintain your current LBM. It's not a "high protein diet," but rather, an adequate protein diet. And far more accurate than coming up with some kind of percentage of total dietary intake for protein, you should know what your body's minimum needs are, and then add a few percentage points to *that* number to slightly increase your protein intake.

As a frame of reference, where a person following PP might be taking in 90-100g of protein as his minimum daily intake, a bodybuilder looking to build lean muscle might easily be taking in 200-250g of protein--more than twice the PP recommended minimum--and far more carb grams than a typical low carber. So before you start to tweak your protein intake, figure out what your minimum truly should be, and scale upwards gradually form that. Hope this helps.

Hi Gaelen,

Thanks for the welcome and thanks for the response.

As I mentioned I ran across this thread in doing a web search, so I hope you'll pardon me if I'm not very familiar with Drs. Eades books yet. I have ordered a copy of the first book. Hopefully I'll receive it in a few days. In the meantime I've read Levi Wallach's Protein Power in a Nutshell to get a little background on their approach.

Although I'm not familiar with the doctor's specific recommendations, I have read that the US Recommended Daily Allowance intake of protein is .8 grams per kilogram of Ideal Body Weight. Ideal Body Weight is based on gender and height, so in my situation, a 6'0" male, it would be 178 pounds (or 80.9 kilograms)

Where:
Ideal Body Weight =

48 kilograms for 150 centimeters in height + 1 kilogram for each additional centimeter in height

So at .8 grams per kilogram that would be a minimum of 101 grams for me. I'm curious how that compares with the doctors' minimum recommendation. (I currently weigh 157 pounds, my Body Fat is about 16% so my Lean Body Weight is about 132 pounds.)

As you suggest these minimums wouldn't apply to someone doing vigorous weight training in an effort to gain muscle weight. So ordinarily it would require quite a bit more protein to support that effort. In support of your comments, I am also a member of a bodybuilding forum and they quote research studies in the field of sports medicine that have found that the RDA for those engaged in regular endurance exercise should be 1.2 - 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight and 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight for strength exercisers.

As I understand it the Protein Power approach is targeted for folks who wish to lose weight. Can it be used effectively for those who wish to gain weight?

Further, in the case of diabetics would it be safe to be eating relatively high amounts of protein and fats? Putting the controversial issue of potential kidney damage aside for the moment, wouldn't relatively high amounts of proteins and fats result in significant Insulin responses that might lead to increased Insulin resistance? Is that why you suggested a gradual increase from the minimum amounts?

Thanks again.

Larry

[Mitra]

Welcome, Larry.

The amount of protein recommended by PP depends on how active you are. You need to multiply your lean body mass (LBM) by:
0.5 if you are sedentary
0.6 if you do 20-30 mins exercise 2 or 3 times per week
0.7 if you do more than 30 mins 3 to 5 times per week
0.8 if you do an hour or more 5 or more times per week
0.9 if you are a competitive athlete doing an hour or more twice daily.

As you observe, most people following PP are trying to lose weight, but I mentioned above an example of someone who used a low carb approach to get up to a healthy weight. The Eadeses' book, Staying Power, in its advice on maintenance says that those who need to keep their carbs particularly low to control blood sugar, lipids, GE reflux, high blood pressure, fluid retention or whatever, can avoid losing more weight by eating more protein and good quality fats. Meat, nuts, nut butters, cheese, eggs, avocado ...

[Gaelen]

Larry, you asked Can it be used effectively for those who wish to gain weight?

Somewhat...and it can also be effectively used, as Mitra points out, to reach or sustain a healthier weight. I also have survived a bout with CRC, during which I rapidly lost 18 lbs. in six weeks. Following maintenance levels of PP (for me, approximately 80g protein and 80g effective carbs per day, and whatever quantity of fats I could take in), I was able to maintain my weight and eventually gain back those 18 lbs. to stay relatively robust at around 150 lbs. during my first chemo regimen. To be honest, if I could have managed to eat (food was not my friend at that time...), I would have aimed for 100g of protein per day, because your body needs more than your protein minimum in times when it needs to heal.

Further, in the case of diabetics would it be safe to be eating relatively high amounts of protein and fats? Putting the controversial issue of potential kidney damage aside for the moment, wouldn't relatively high amounts of proteins and fats result in significant Insulin responses that might lead to increased Insulin resistance? Is that why you suggested a gradual increase from the minimum amounts?

Larry, I can't repeat enough...this plan does not recommend 'relatively high' levels of proteins or fats. PP's protein minimums are 'high' only in the context of the outdated and just plain wrong idea that every adult, regardless of size, will do just fine on a flat 50-55g of protein/day--that used to be the protein RDA for someone eating 2000 calories/day, and it's a number that still crops up when people discuss controlled carb eating. Sure 80-100g sounds 'high' in that context! But as you have probably seen on bodybuilder forums, 80-100g is barely getting started for a serious body builder. 200g of protein per day or more is normal for them, but 'high' in the context of Ornish's suggested eating plan, and it's even high in the context of PP. Do you need to eat 200+ grams of protein to gain weight? Probably not--eating more fat will give you a higher return toward your goal. And while we're talking about fats, eating 80-90g fats/day (for me, about 60% of my daily caloric intake when I was able to exercise harder and more often) is high-fat in the context of eating plans that insist on 20-30% fat intake. However, it's not actually high fat in the context of say, the 'SuperSize me' documentary. ;)

The highest level of protein the Drs. Eades recommend is 138g/day, and that's for someone who weighs over 300 lbs., using the rougher estimates (height, weight and sex) in Protein Power Lifeplan rather than the somewhat more precise measurements attempting to calculate lean body mass. In the context of body building, that's not high. That's not even middle of the road.

That said, you shouldn't get significant insulin responses from eating appropriate PP recommended levels of proteins and the types of healthy fats that Mitra suggested while at the same time controlling your carb intake at amounts which don't cause your blood glucose levels to rise. High fat intake only tends to disturb insulin levels in the presence of high carb intake, not in the presence of appropriate protein intake. Of course, you need to monitor your own intake and the resulting BG and insulin to know for sure--different foods affect each of us differently. As for 'kidney damage'--I've been eating this way since 2002. I have a lot of gastrointestinal scarring after two surgeries, but according to my every-90-days bloodwork, my kidneys are working just fine. If sustained intake of higher fat and PP appropriate protein levels was going to take a toll, it hasn't happened so far. If you HAVE kidney issues to begin with, that's different. If you don't have kidney issues going into controlled carb eating, detractors have a very tough time coming up with actual research that directly parallels this type of eating and produces kidney problems, either long or short term.

You might take a look at some of the research articles stored in the first forum which discuss the relationship of macronutrients and how consumption of high carb + high fat is what causes the insulin response/insulin resistance scenario. OTOH, controlled carb + high fat does NOT typically cause the same insulin response.

Link to 'Important links and resources' thread (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68)

[Larry Chanin]

Welcome, Larry.

The amount of protein recommended by PP depends on how active you are. You need to multiply your lean body mass (LBM) by:
0.5 if you are sedentary
0.6 if you do 20-30 mins exercise 2 or 3 times per week
0.7 if you do more than 30 mins 3 to 5 times per week
0.8 if you do an hour or more 5 or more times per week
0.9 if you are a competitive athlete doing an hour or more twice daily.

As you observe, most people following PP are trying to lose weight, but I mentioned above an example of someone who used a low carb approach to get up to a healthy weight. The Eadeses' book, Staying Power, in its advice on maintenance says that those who need to keep their carbs particularly low to control blood sugar, lipids, GE reflux, high blood pressure, fluid retention or whatever, can avoid losing more weight by eating more protein and good quality fats. Meat, nuts, nut butters, cheese, eggs, avocado ...

Hi Mitra,

Thanks for the welcome.

Since I do vigorous exercise for about 75 minutes 3-4 times a week, I guess I fall between the .7 and .8 multiplier. For my Lean Body Weight this works out very close to the US RDA for protein at my Ideal Body Weight.

Since its a stretch to characterize the US RDA as high, this reenforces Gaelen's point that the Protein Power recommendations aren't "relatively high" either, at least not for my specific situation.

Thanks.

Larry

[Larry Chanin]

I also have survived a bout with CRC, during which I rapidly lost 18 lbs. in six weeks. Following maintenance levels of PP (for me, approximately 80g protein and 80g effective carbs per day, and whatever quantity of fats I could take in), I was able to maintain my weight and eventually gain back those 18 lbs. to stay relatively robust at around 150 lbs. during my first chemo regimen. To be honest, if I could have managed to eat (food was not my friend at that time...), I would have aimed for 100g of protein per day, because your body needs more than your protein minimum in times when it needs to heal.

Yes, we certainly have a shared experience. During chemoradiation therapy I lost 14 pounds in six weeks, about 9% of my body weight. Early on I was taking a protein supplement, but later l had no desire to eat, or drink for that matter. This became my undoing because I became seriously dehydrated in the last week of therapy. Like you I had no trouble gaining back the weight, probably because a lot of the loss was water weight. However, all those months of inactivity took their toll and I found that I had lost a bit of muscle weight and replaced it with fat. Hence, my interest in this thread on gaining weight and the bodybuilding forum.


Larry, I can't repeat enough...this plan does not recommend 'relatively high' levels of proteins or fats. PP's protein minimums are 'high' only in the context of the outdated and just plain wrong idea that every adult, regardless of size, will do just fine on a flat 50-55g of protein/day--that used to be the protein RDA for someone eating 2000 calories/day, and it's a number that still crops up when people discuss controlled carb eating. Sure 80-100g sounds 'high' in that context! But as you have probably seen on bodybuilder forums, 80-100g is barely getting started for a serious body builder. 200g of protein per day or more is normal for them, but 'high' in the context of Ornish's suggested eating plan, and it's even high in the context of PP. Do you need to eat 200+ grams of protein to gain weight? Probably not--eating more fat will give you a higher return toward your goal. And while we're talking about fats, eating 80-90g fats/day (for me, about 60% of my daily caloric intake when I was able to exercise harder and more often) is high-fat in the context of eating plans that insist on 20-30% fat intake. However, it's not actually high fat in the context of say, the 'SuperSize me' documentary. ;)

The highest level of protein the Drs. Eades recommend is 138g/day, and that's for someone who weighs over 300 lbs., using the rougher estimates (height, weight and sex) in Protein Power Lifeplan rather than the somewhat more precise measurements attempting to calculate lean body mass. In the context of body building, that's not high. That's not even middle of the road.

I'm embarassed to say the only time I've seriously logged my daily intake was following surgery and that was only to make sure I was getting enough grams of fiber. :o

I'm guessing that, ever since my diagnosis of diabetes, my diet had historically been high in protein, low in carbohydrates, low in fiber and, because I never focused on fats, it was probably high in fats.

As a result of this thread I've started to try to get a rough handle on my protein intake. I'd say that it probably is already close to the doctors' high recommendation. So for the time being my concerns about too much protein are somewhat relieved.


That said, you shouldn't get significant insulin responses from eating appropriate PP recommended levels of proteins and the types of healthy fats that Mitra suggested while at the same time controlling your carb intake at amounts which don't cause your blood glucose levels to rise. High fat intake only tends to disturb insulin levels in the presence of high carb intake, not in the presence of appropriate protein intake. Of course, you need to monitor your own intake and the resulting BG and insulin to know for sure--different foods affect each of us differently.

The problem with your suggestion is, while it is very easy to monitor blood glucose, as I understand it, it's hard to measure insulin resistance. From what I've read the euglycemic insulin clamp and the minimal model analysis are the only two methods that provide a true measure of insulin resistance. Both methods are complex in one way or another. Neither is suitable for routine clinical use.


You might take a look at some of the research articles stored in the first forum which discuss the relationship of macronutrients and how consumption of high carb + high fat is what causes the insulin response/insulin resistance scenario. OTOH, controlled carb + high fat does NOT typically cause the same insulin response.

Link to 'Important links and resources' thread (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68)

I was wondering if you could point me to the appropriate articles. I couldn't find the ones that discuss insulin response/resistance with regard to high fat.

Thanks for your help.

Larry

[Gaelen]

Larry, just to be clear--I lost those 18 lbs rapidly in the weeks immediately prior to diagnosis--went from 168 to 150 in six weeks. It was the only clearly cancer-risk symptom I had.

Once chemo started (I had 39 cycles of three different regimens and two surgeries), I stabilized at 150 lbs (very close to my goal weight) by eating my protein minimum (80g) and about 80g effective carbs. There were lots of days especially during the first chemo regimen when I couldn't really eat--and I couldn't drink cold things, or handle cold foods either. I made a couple protein shakes for each treatment day, let them come to room temp, and sipped them all day long. I didn't lose mainly water weight--I lost about 15% of my lean muscle mass.

I gained weight back (and more!) when in the second year after diagnosis I was switched to a form of chemo that also used a heavy dose of steroids. I was on that chemo for nearly a year, and while on it, had continuous dose steroids in my system for 16 days out of every 28. As soon as I was taken off that regimen and had liver resection, I was able to return to more normal eating and lost about 20 lbs. of the weight I'd gained. I've been working on the rest of the weight gain for a year...one lonely pound at a time. ;) It's been a real struggle to eat to support a new, healthy me, get stronger, *and* lose the extra weight...but I'm getting there ;)

I'm pretty slammed at work right now because I'm going to be on the road for the next 11 days, but when I get a chance I'll try to link to the articles you're looking for. You might also try searching at www.nutritionandmetabolism.com

Be well, live strong.

[Larry Chanin]

Larry, just to be clear--I lost those 18 lbs rapidly in the weeks immediately prior to diagnosis--went from 168 to 150 in six weeks. It was the only clearly cancer-risk symptom I had.

Once chemo started (I had 39 cycles of three different regimens and two surgeries), I stabilized at 150 lbs (very close to my goal weight) by eating my protein minimum (80g) and about 80g effective carbs. There were lots of days especially during the first chemo regimen when I couldn't really eat--and I couldn't drink cold things, or handle cold foods either. I made a couple protein shakes for each treatment day, let them come to room temp, and sipped them all day long. I didn't lose mainly water weight--I lost about 15% of my lean muscle mass.

I gained weight back (and more!) when in the second year after diagnosis I was switched to a form of chemo that also used a heavy dose of steroids. I was on that chemo for nearly a year, and while on it, had continuous dose steroids in my system for 16 days out of every 28. As soon as I was taken off that regimen and had liver resection, I was able to return to more normal eating and lost about 20 lbs. of the weight I'd gained. I've been working on the rest of the weight gain for a year...one lonely pound at a time. ;) It's been a real struggle to eat to support a new, healthy me, get stronger, *and* lose the extra weight...but I'm getting there ;)

Ah, I see. While we may still have a somewhat similiar experience, you undoubtedly faced a much more protracted and intense bout with cancer than I. :jawDrop: Here's hoping these experiences are past us, and the only residual effects are our mutual desire to pursue a healthy lifestyle. :thumbsup:


I'm pretty slammed at work right now because I'm going to be on the road for the next 11 days, but when I get a chance I'll try to link to the articles you're looking for. You might also try searching at www.nutritionandmetabolism.com (http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com)

Be well, live strong.

I understand, and I greatly appreciate the time you've already contributed.

Take care.

Larry

[tileman]

Great dialog!

Larry. What bodybuilding forums do you recommend?:)

[Larry Chanin]

Great dialog!

Larry. What bodybuilding forums do you recommend?:)

Hi tileman,

I only have experience with Will Brink's forum called Body Building Revealed Member's Zone. In order to gain access to the forum you have to have purchased Will's ebook entitled Body Building Revealed (http://www.brinkzone.com/ebooks.php). It costs $50.

Mr. Brink's ebook is well written and in every chapter he provides references to the clinical research from which his recommendations are based. Like the Protein Power forum, his formum has a number of extremely knowledgeable and helpful moderators. I have found that the forum members are also very knowledgeable as well.

I must stress that Mr. Brink's recommendations are based on the assumption that you are healthy to start, have a normal metabolism, no history of kidney disease, and are trying to gain weight. He advocates a high protein diet, i.e., higher than Drs. Eades recommended maximum. He also recommends a relatively low fat diet and a fairly high carbohydrate diet. In particular, as in most body building routines, he routinely recommends a high glycemic, high protein drink prior to and after a weight lifting workout. Needless to say, he doesn't recommend that diabetics adhere to that particular piece of advice involving high glycemic drinks.

As I mentioned earlier, it is important that regardless of which forums we visit, that we carefully evaluate the advice in the context of our health concerns and make the appropriate adjustments.

Take care.

Larry