Protein Prescription question:

[SarahB150]

On Jimmy Moore's blog, he's got a "review" (more like an ad, imo) for this lowcarb diet called "Kimkins." A comment to the review raised concerns about the protein-inadequacy of Kimkins (Kimmer, its creator, states that 60g per day is more than sufficient, just look at the US RDA for a 2000-calorie diet). Moore forwarded the concerns to her, and her response includes this statement: "IMO, people misinterpret the Eades of Protein Power who provide a protein formula. It should be based on lean body mass, less skeleton & body fat -- which don't need protein to sustain." (here's the link, you may have to scroll to find this passage--- http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2006/07/slimmer-kimmer-creating-weight-loss.html)

It's my understanding that "lean body mass" (LBM) by definition excludes body fat mass. HOWEVER, here's my question: is this true, that we are to subtract the weight of the skeleton??? I have NOT been doing this in any of my calculations. I also had some red flags go up when she further writes that our bones don't require protein---is that true? How can that be true?

Thanks in advance for any insights!! :)

[Mitra]

It's correct that the requirements for protein in PP are dependent on Lean Body Mass (and how active you are). In the later books, the numbers are presented for a certain body weight, based on assumptions about lean body mass and activity level, just to simplify things - to avoid having to calculate LBM.

If you're using the calculation in PP, then you just do it as it's written - use your body measurements to calculate your fat percentage, subtract the weight of fat from your total weight, and that's your LBM - everything except the fat - which is what you use to calculate your daily protein requirement. As you say, it already excludes fat, and you don't need to subtract the weight of your skeleton (even supposing you know what that is!). If you're using PPLP or the 30-Day book, then you look up your height and weight on the chart, and it tells you how much protein you should be eating at each meal.

LBM excludes fat, but it includes everything else. In particular, bones aren't just minerals, like a stick of chalk. Much of their strength comes from a collagen matrix, and collagen is a protein.

I believe Kimkins is basically low carb, low fat. Apparently lowish protein as well, which means overall it's very low calorie. Since you have to join her site (and pay), I don't have any detailed information on her plan, but I get the impression it's based on her own experiments in how to lose weight very fast, rather than any particular scientific research. (I could be wrong on that, because I haven't looked into it particularly.)

[SarahB150]

Okay, thanks Mitra. I'm on the right track, and staying here with PPLP and including my skeleton in my LBM. Thank you! :)

[maxlharris]

so, I did some research on Kimkins a while back after reading stuff on Jimmy Moore's blog. I looked at a couple of recipes at the Kimkins site, and read some stuff about it on other support sites.

Basically, the plan is Low Carb - Low Cal. You get there through low fat-low carb. I find this approach profoundly depressing, but I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on the Internet. I find it depressing because I found a hot wing recipe that involved no butter on a low carb diet. It didn't replace the butter with something like olive oil, or something more "Mediterranean." It just wasn't there. And that, to me, is like anti-prozac.

I mentioned that I neither am a doctor (or anyone else who might know anything about nutrition beyond being a lay person), not do I play one on TV. The woman behind Kimkins isn't a doctor, either. In her attempt to dispense protein recommendations and her interpretation of Dr. Eades & Dr. Eades work, she is clearly trying to play a doctor (or some other person who is more than a layperson) on the Internet and wherever else she's popping up.

Thoughts on the USDA RDA: Without talking about lobbying and the politics of agricultural policy and the US Government, the US RDA is designed the be the minimum protein necessary for an average person to sit on a couch all day, breathe and sleep, without destroying their organs. So, I dunno about you, but I'd want a little more than that.

BTW: if you think losing fast like Kimmers is cool, I hope you would not enjoy keeping it off for long. Low Fat/Low Cal is not good for this. It's very hard to comply with on a forever basis.

I am a little upset that this might be read as an ad hominem attack on Kimmers and Kimkins, but she's mis-repping what the Eades wrote with bad science that seems like she made it up (subtract the skeleton weight indeed... I suppose she thinks bones are just calcium, or maybe milk minus the protein and fat, dehydrated). I'm sure people lose on Kimkins (and fast, not necessarily healthy). I'm sure she's a nice person with her heart in the right place.

As to Jimmy Moore: I've seen his stuff on Kimkins. It is an ad. She is an advertiser (see the ad in his long list of ads on the right side of the page), and he will regularly post a Kimkins success story. He will also regularly post reviews of advertisers' products, which is ethically questionable, to be kind (I may not be a doctor, but I did win the Dean's Award in Business Ethics during my MBA and my mentor at work is the Ethics Council). I can add and subtract, and I know the difference between reporting and press releases. The funny thing is that Jimmy will regularly rip a study because of the relationship between the sponsor and the results. As we say around my house, Pot, Kettle. Black! Oddly, every time I point this out in comments, Jimmy moderates them out. I wonder why.

If you want a good blog on this stuff, Weight of the Evidence and Mike Eades blog (minus the politics) are good sources. Less advertising, more content. And they load faster for me.

[maxlharris]

"The Kimkins advantage pushes that even further by incorporating lean protein choices and limiting fat to only what's necessary to prepare the meal. Naturally, the higher your calories the slower the loss."

That's from an interview with Jimmy Moore. http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2006/10/kimmers-kimkins-fast-low-carb-weight.html
I found it because my Jimmy Tracker on Google spied him with another Kimkins story, that ended with a link to the kimkins page and JOIN!

I would never stand in the way of someone making a buck off their work, but when you present yourself as unbiased then proceed to write PR material for one sponsor (and present it like its news) and write unfailingly positive reviews of products that are sold through another advertiser (we know that not every LC-substitute product is great or the best ever. We know from personal experience and from logic), you open yourself to people scratching heads.

[laughingW]

I was curious enough about Kimkins to buy a subscription way back when it was just getting started and cheaper.

Basically the whole thing is support for an Atkins 72 plan, with "induction" all the way to goal if one desires. The food plan is 70-100 g protein per day, less than 20 g carbs, and "enough fat to make your recipes work." In practice people do all kinds of variations. People are encouraged to exercise - the founder didn't because of some physical limitations herself.

On a macro level, it's simple symptom management - too fat? Here's one way to lose it fast. I can see where people might be attracted to that.

I don't think the owner, Kimmer (nickname) presents it as anything other than that. Not claiming to be a doctor.

I like it for the debunking of "enough calories" myth and "suppress metabolism" myths. It can be thought of as a protein-sparing modified fast (like those studied by low-carb luminary as Stephen Phinney) or for people who are candidates for GBS, just skip the surgery and proceed to the lifestyle afterward.

Or it can be thought of as CRAN - I did a "what if" with Fitday based on super low cal and the only "nutrient" I was missing was energy from carbs. Everything else - protein, EFAs, micronutrients - was plentiful.

As a drastic change it's hard on people who come in with ED history (they keep falling into the starve/binge cycle) and the inevitable what to do when your excess fat is gone. But those are true of all diet changes.

Personally I found the apologia and stories interesting and it helped me feel better about low calories because my own Protein Power plan is lower than the minumum 1200 calories recommended by "experts" including those in my HMO.

Sheesh, Jimmy Moore. I never saw so many plugs for franken food in my life. I still read it sometimes though.