Protein Toxicity for a PP Prodigal?

[andrewwhaley]

I was putting together my new approach at getting healthier and thinner in the new year when a possible problem emerged from the numbers. If I start with a copious amount of good lean protein and then add 40gr. or less of carbs, how much fat will I have to eat to stay out of protein toxicity? The Eades and Loren Cordain mention this phenomenon, also called "rabbit starvation," and it seems like if I don't consume copious amounts of fat, but mostly lean meat, a little olive oil, and under 40gr. of veggie carbs, the percentage of my intake that is from protein should send me into protein toxicity. I lost 80lbs. in 5 months doing PP back in 1999 and cheated often, living mostly Atkins style most of the time, so no lack of fat there. Now, I have had the hardest time getting into and staying in ketosis, and I've gained that all back and 30lbs. more. I want to use a ketogenic approach for body recomp, but don't want to mess my health up. If it makes any difference, I am large-framed, 6 feet tall, 197 LBM, with 346 body weight. I swim or do cardio every other day and lift a circuit routine twice a week. It's nice to be back! I used to be a daily lurker, occasional poster on here. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!

[mcsblues]

Welcome back.

The Eades and Atkins are fairly similar when it comes to fat - as long as you concentrate on getting healthy (saturated monounsaturated and omega 3s - no trans/hydrogenated and minimise omega 6s) there is no need to limit yourself to lean sources and 'a little olive oil' ... and if you do, rabbit starvation is not an issue. Of course you can't go to extremes (calories still count on low carb) but is there any reason you are choosing to cut your fat intake so much?

[lyn64]

My take on the rabbit starvation process is that it is only going to affect people without much bodyfat to lose. In the context of a low carb diet and getting adequate (not an 'excess' of protein) human metabolism shifts pretty quickly to fat burning. The question for people desiring to lose bodyfat is, do you want the fatburning to be bodyfat or dietary fat.

That said, I would assume that an adequate dietary intake of Omega 3's (which the body can't synthesise, ie. Essential Fatty Acids) is not negotiable. It's possible that if 'rabbit starvation' ever affected anyone with excess bodyfat, it was specifically because their intake of EFA's, not fat per se, was inadequate. Rabbits don't contain much Omega 3 (or any other fat for that matter ;) )

I would also assume that the constant hunger reprted as a symptom of 'rabbit starvation' , led to even greater consumption of the only food source available - lean protein - which only made the problem worse.

It seems to me that in the light of the recent thread about storage of excess dietary protein (in which Gabriel pointed out that it could only take place in the prescence of carbohydrate) the failure of some people to lose bodyfat at an acceptable rate on a low carb diet is not because they are consuming too many calories per se. but too many fat calories.

Which doesn't leave a lot except protein , and of course EFA's. Of course the anti bodyfat GAIN ( as opposed to bodyfat loss ) homonal environment set up by resrtricting dietary carbohydrate (ie lower insulin/ higher glucagon) will make it less likely that dietary fat consumption above EFA requirements leads to further bodyfat gains.

But it sure as hell will probably mean that you won't lose much bodyfat either.

lyn

[maxlharris]

I was putting together my new approach at getting healthier and thinner in the new year when a possible problem emerged from the numbers. If I start with a copious amount of good lean protein and then add 40gr. or less of carbs, how much fat will I have to eat to stay out of protein toxicity? The Eades and Loren Cordain mention this phenomenon, also called "rabbit starvation," and it seems like if I don't consume copious amounts of fat, but mostly lean meat, a little olive oil, and under 40gr. of veggie carbs, the percentage of my intake that is from protein should send me into protein toxicity. I lost 80lbs. in 5 months doing PP back in 1999 and cheated often, living mostly Atkins style most of the time, so no lack of fat there. Now, I have had the hardest time getting into and staying in ketosis, and I've gained that all back and 30lbs. more. I want to use a ketogenic approach for body recomp, but don't want to mess my health up. If it makes any difference, I am large-framed, 6 feet tall, 197 LBM, with 346 body weight. I swim or do cardio every other day and lift a circuit routine twice a week. It's nice to be back! I used to be a daily lurker, occasional poster on here. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!

Hello Andrew,

I am not a scientist, nor do I play one on TV. However, as a person with a similar core frame: 6' 1", 178 LBM, I suppose I can comment from my experiences.

According to Fitday, I have been getting about 135G of protein per day, 24G of carb, and 98G of fat. The fat has been about 42% saturated. I am what the Eades call Active (3 workouts per week of 30+ minutes, plus I walk a hell of a lot), so my protein requirement is between 120 and 125. I haven't had anything like Rabbit Starvation as described in the book, but maybe that's cause I'm eating fats, as they recommend. As another poster suggested, just keep the Omega-6's low, dodge the transfat, and eat until you are satisfied, not full, and you should be more than fine.

Good luck. I am sure you can do it with the proper level of committment.

[dvdmon]

I think as long as you try to eat a mixture of meats, whole dairy (if you choose to eat dairy), and nuts or nut butters (again if you like those and can eat them) and some added fats in cooking/salads, etc. you should be fine. I think rabbit starvation is basically when your only source of calories is through an animal source that is extremely low in fat, like that of a rabbit. I haven't heard of anyone experiencing this sort of thing on an LC diet, or at least not recognizing it as such. I think your fat intake has to be pretty low. "Lean meats" if they are beef, still have a decent amount of fat in them. I generally get 60-70% of my calories from fat. It's rarely gone under 60%, but then I don't particularly try to get more.

What is your concern specifically that makes you want to eat less fat then more? Is it in order to keep your calories low enough to lose weight? If that's the case, you might try out eating more fat than you intended and seeing how that works. Remember that losing more than 2 lbs per week (after the initial water loss) is probably not that good a thing. If it's that you are concerned about saturated fat (I know Cordain differs here from the Eades), then consider sources of meat that are lower in sat fats, especially grass-fed beef, free-range pork, fish, etc.

[Gabriel Guzman]

I was putting together my new approach at getting healthier and thinner in the new year when a possible problem emerged from the numbers. If I start with a copious amount of good lean protein and then add 40gr. or less of carbs, how much fat will I have to eat to stay out of protein toxicity? The Eades and Loren Cordain mention this phenomenon, also called "rabbit starvation," and it seems like if I don't consume copious amounts of fat, but mostly lean meat, a little olive oil, and under 40gr. of veggie carbs, the percentage of my intake that is from protein should send me into protein toxicity.

I don't know if this is a misinterpretation of what rabbit starvation is or not but as far as Protein Power is concerned, as long as the protein requirement is calculated based on your lean body mass and your level of physical activity, it's quite difficult to end up with 'copious' amounts of protein and/or fat.

To that end, what is the actual percentage of lean that constitutes 'rabbit starvation'? It's worth noting that actual deaths from rabbit-starvation, or from the eating of other skinny meat, are rare. In reality, there is no need to eat ultra-lean protein, not even if we think of trying to become more 'paleo-oriented'.



I lost 80lbs. in 5 months doing PP back in 1999 and cheated often, living mostly Atkins style most of the time, so no lack of fat there. Now, I have had the hardest time getting into and staying in ketosis, and I've gained that all back and 30lbs.

Perhaps your focus shouldn't be in trying to hit a certain level of ketosis. Ketosis doesn't mean weight loss. More ketosis (as in more ketones detected in urine) doesn't mean more fat burned, only that the energy demand has been met and excess ketones are being excreted. Mabye a closer, more careful look into the food you eat could shed more light as to the reasons for your weight gain so you can correct or re-structure your menus.



I want to use a ketogenic approach for body recomp, but don't want to mess my health up. If it makes any difference, I am large-framed, 6 feet tall, 197 LBM, with 346 body weight. I swim or do cardio every other day and lift a circuit routine twice a week. It's nice to be back! I used to be a daily lurker, occasional poster on here. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!!

Note that the 'ketogenic approach' means different things to different people. Carbohydrate control (or 'restriction' if you prefer) while procuring adequate protein intake and moderate fat intake (which is easily achieved if you choose animal protein as your protein source) gets you where you want to go. No need to add extra fat to meat some quota, not even the need to add 'copious' amounts of protein either. Just a careful estimation of your minimum protein intake according to your lean body mass and level of physical activity... yeah, you guessed, Protein Power. The way you did it in 1999 is the way to do it again, but stay with it. We'll help you if you like, but the key is that the closer to the program you stay, the better results you'll get.

To yours and others delight, I found this fascinating piece about traditional diets at the Weston Price website. It talks about the traditional diet of Naive Americans and, although doesn't talk at length of rabbit starvation, it does explain how animals are eaten, which normally includes fat. If anything, it's an eye opener and a debunker to the myths about these diets being ultra-high in protein with very little fat. The piece also includes a commentary from the Eades about Type II Diabetes among Native Americans.


Guts and Grease: The Diet of Native Americans (http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/native_americans.html)

[ladydoc442]

Gabe - I found the article on the Native American diet very eye-opening. As a Native American myself, I can see first-hand the effects of the health-crippling diet that the average American now eats. My grandfather, father, and two of his brothers all suffered from adult-onset diabetes which led to strokes in two of them. My dad went to see a naturalist in Canada, who recommended a Paleolithic-type diet, and urged him to cut out all white flour, sugar and processed carbs. After following this diet, his diabetes disappeared and he was no longer insulin-dependent. Unfortunately, his father and brothers did not have this advantage and passed away as a result of their poor diet/diabetes.

Since our family is prone to this awful disease, it is now more important than ever that I get back on track and eat the way my ancestors did.

Thank you so much for that article! :)