How to convert my brother, who is losing on HIGH CARB

[Songwriter]

My brother is a professor, open-minded and scientifically oriented. Since I had heart problems this year, he has decided to get in gear and lose weight and gain preventive health. He has doing well losing weight, he's lost maybe 12-15 lbs in the past couple of months. And he does not want to change. Yesterday, he emailed that for breakfast, he might eat oatmeal. For lunch, a Lean Quisine. Maybe a pear or apple or oatmeal for snack. Maybe another Lean Quisine for dinner. I assume that Lean Quisine is low-fat, not low-carb.

Today, I emailed him to ask if he wants me to keep sending low-carb info as I find it. He replied yes, but he does not want to change what he is doing, since the weight is coming off. And that he could maybe switch to low-carb once he hits target weight.

HERE IS WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN SO FAR:

Okay, apples and pears and Lean Cuisines and oatmeal are not part of a low-carb plan, so, I was just wondering. (Actually, they could fit but it would be only small amounts... and in Phase 1, you could pretty much write them off. In Maintenance phase, you could eat very small portions.)

For one to grasp the concept, the must is to read a book. I follow Protein Power by Drs. Eades. Their latest is Protein Power Life Plan. Dr. Atkins was the first big-selling low-carb author.

Again, the basic idea behind this is that humans have evolved a digestive system as hunter-gatherers and easy-to-get carbohydrates, as part of a regular diet, were pretty much impossible to get. Only when agriculture was invented were readily available carbs brought into the picture. Since they are ultra-cheap, once economics became part of everything, they took over.

The big problem is insulin. Carbs spike insulin way beyond where it should be going. End result is obesity, heart disease and diabetes.

It is far too evident that obesity is rampant in this country. Low-carb gurus have been harping for years that low-FAT, HIGH-carb WILL NEVER WORK. That the low-fat, high-carb diet entrenched into mainstream dietary advice is the CAUSE, not the cure. Low-carb followers say Sure, people can lose weight on low-fat, high-carb diets but very few keep it off. And the important thing to remember is that the continuing WORSENING of the obesity picture proves that it doesn't work despite MASSIVE advertising and media attention. Of course, scientific studies are a big part but you have to be careful with analyzing them.

Obviously, you will deduce your own opinions but I think we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of believing what so much of the media (news and massive advertising) are telling us -- the low-fat, high-carb machine is HUGE. It's entrenched and will take a very long time to displace.

Do whatever you want but I don't want to keep sending low-carb info if you are not interested. I continue to read but, so far, I have found nothing to change my mind that low-carb makes sense. And I must always mention that, just like the Protein Power book said, my blood lipids profile was the best it has ever been while following the PP diet. With our family history (and my present condition), a good lipid profile is crucial.

Protein Power at a glance:

Phase 1 - not more than 30gm carbs per day. This is not much at all. Phase 1 is the period where you allow your body to adapt to controlling insulin swings. It is also the period where you lose weight down to your ideal body weight.

Phase 2 - Maintenance phase, where you determine how many grams of carbs you can eat to maintain insulin control. Carb intake can typically be two to four times as much as in Phase 1. You'll be able to eat almost anything but some things, it will be very small quantities. And some things are so obviously "bad," you'll be wise to never eat them again. Like a Twinkie.

I don't get hungry near as bad as when I ate a low-fat, high-carb diet and I don't have to take naps that seem unnecessary. Before, after lunch, I'd get lethargic and have to nap.

:::

So, give me any comment to help plead the case. Obviously, people here believe in the PP concept. Remember, he is happy with his weight-loss progress on low-fat, high-carb. But, open-minded. I don't want to change his mind just to change his mind, I only want to help him do the thing that will work long-term. At this point, I'm convinced PP is it.

[LisaS]

you have to know how your brother comes to decisions - he is a professor, open-minded & science-oriented you say - but how does he come to decisions - does he do his own research - does he just ask around - do you know his style? You say he doesn't want to change - so he won't. But you can plant seeds for later.

If it were my brother, I'd send him a copy of PPLP - send him printed copies of some of the research articles - send him some of Cordain's research (Paleo) - instead of explaining it to him - let him read the source materials for himself. Since he isn't looking to make a change your saying "try this" probably won't cut it (wouldn't have for me) - but if he might be interested in learning where the research is leading people - and that will seep in and maybe he'll decide to alter what he's doing for those reasons.

[Songwriter]

I have recommended the books. Maybe I will just mail PP book to him.

I send him emails several times a week on anything worthwhile that pleads the PP case. Everything from independent research to Eades blogs to posts on this board, etc.

The only reason I post this is... he does not want to change from low-fat, high-carb. He has never really dieted ever. So, now, he is and it is working because he is eating low calorie and he is walking. BUT... if we look at what works, we could safely say that this will not work long-term, right? Then again, you see many people from time to time who seem to make low-fat work.

I guess what bugs me is that it is my opinion that if he were on low-carb, it would work just as good and likely, even better. And long-term, since I buy into the concept, much better for overall weight maintenance and health.

[Viking Dan]

If he's losing weight already and is comfortable with what he's eating, I don't see why he'd be inclined to switch.

[Songwriter]

If he's losing weight already and is comfortable with what he's eating, I don't see why he'd be inclined to switch.

Well, how many bazillion people have succeeded in losing weight on high carb diets and then failed to maintain it? I don't know the answers but perhaps the success ratio is higher for PP eaters. You have to buy into the concept that it is THE way to eat for LIFE. But you can't really buy into it without reading the entire book, I don't think.

In other words, I would think you have to buy into HIGH CARB DIETS DO NOT WORK LONG-TERM AND THEY NEVER WILL BECAUSE THIS IS NOT HOW HOMO SAPIENS IS DESIGNED.

Beats me. Heck, I wish I could look into a crystal ball and make sure *I* will be able to stick to PP long-term. For now, it makes sense and I'm doing pretty well.

[Viking Dan]

I'm not defending his logic, just saying that's what I believe his logic to be.

The failure rate long term for ALL kinds of diets is pretty high.

[Songwriter]

The failure rate long term for ALL kinds of diets is pretty high.

That is exactly what I have wondered. Once you go a certain way, habits are just very hard to totally break.

So... where does that leave us? I have read so much, it's hard for me to keep straight what I've read, haha. But... I suppose we could go by the number of studies which show that physiological responses are HEALTHIER on low-carb diets than on high-carb diets. For instance, if blood lipid profiles improve on low-carb diets, then, that's a pretty good sign that something good is going on. Irrespective of how many dieters stick with whatever diet they're on.

It's a quagmire out there. We can't go back to see how humans evolved. And who's to say we might not discover something beyond that. Like eating bark from some oak tree in Spain extends your life two-fold or something. If only paleo man would have tried it!

[Viking Dan]

That is exactly what I have wondered. Once you go a certain way, habits are just very hard to totally break.


Particularly if the habit works.

...ike eating bark from some oak tree in Spain extends your life two-fold or something.

Reference please?

[Billie]

Where it leaves your brother is instead of adapting to a healthy life style, he is instead choosing to stay on a diet. As Viking Dan said, we know statistics are just awful if that is the way people approach it or look at it. Diets are not living, how long can you live on bagels.

Lisa and Gabe, Gaelen and many others are very knowledgable, science minded you could say people here, ask your brother to join the board, tell him, no ask him to do this for you. Tell him just out of his scientific curiousity doesn't he want to try something that just might work even better.

Bottom line, though, you can't make him do it. He has to come to it on his own.

[Gaelen]

Just one more view...

We are choosing to eat this way, and many of us have seen great health improvements from our choice. Our choice is a 'diet' too...we can choose to stop eating this way at any time.

There are other people in the world who've had great success and improved their health eating in ways which don't include eating low carb. Some are vegetarians. Some control calories. Some follow Weight Watchers or the Johns Hopkins diabetic exchanges program. Heck, there's even Jared and his silly Subway 'diet.' Not everyone is exactly the same, and not everyone responds equally well to any single diet plan...and like dog training, pretty much anything you can describe has worked for someone somewhere at some time, regardless of ability to maintain long-term or nutritional soundness.

Like anyone else who chooses to include, exclude or restrict certain foods from his menus, our diet = menu choices. The benefits of eating low carb, including weight loss, are like the benefits of eating in any other controlled way--we won't continue to benefit from our low carb menu choices or 'diet' if we STOP choosing to control carbs. Even the most optimistic of maintenance plans still controls carb intake more tightly than the average American diet.

In the last 4+ years since I first joined this community, we've regularly welcomed back people who start their return posts with a variation of "lost a lot of weight eating this way XXX years/months ago, but then for (fill in the blank with a reason), I fell off plan and gained back everything I'd lost and more...so I need to get serious again." For everyone who's had a lot of success eating this way and keeping the weight off long term (more than 5 years at goal), there are many more who never get to goal, or who for whatever reason can't maintain at goal and gain back some or all of their weight loss.

Viking Dan is correct that the percentage of people who lose weight eating in any kind of controlled situation and manage to keep the weight off long term (more than 5 years) is not very high. People who approach any set of menu choices as a temporary thing, and who think they can return to their former menu choices without penalty once they lose weight are living in a dream world--whether their 'diet' is low carb or raw food vegan or Weight Watchers or...well, you get the idea. If your health or your weight is compromised and you change your menu to fix it, you pretty much have to keep to some version of that menu or 'diet' or some other equally controlled set of menu choices for the rest of your life to maintain the change...bottom line, most of us can't just eat exactly what we want, how much we want, how often we want it, and keep from gaining weight. Some level of self-control is necessary. ;)

Songwriter's original question--how to convert my brother, who is losing on high carb--brings up another point. This is a way of eating, a set of menu choices. It's not a religion. No 'baptism' is required to make these menu choices. ;) If eating a higher carb menu and exercising is WORKING for someone, well...we're not low carb evangelists...are we? I know that I make menu choices for my health, and my co-workers always notice that the lunches I'm making look and smell terrific. Some of them control their carbs, too, but most don't. That doesn't mean they won't eat the stuff I bring to pot lucks, because I'm a good cook and they know it will taste great. They don't care what's in it...or NOT in it, for that matter...unless they're allergic to something I've used like mushrooms or nuts. But I let my food and my results speak for themselves; I don't spend any time 'selling' low carb menu choices to people who ask me what I'm eating. If they want to try something, I'll help...but I don't feel like I should spend time sending low carb propaganda to people who are successfully eating another way.

YMMV. ;)

[Newbirth]

I wouldn't worry about converting him. My Mom lost 70 pounds on Weight Watchers, continued to follow the program, and has kept the weight off. That's her choice and it works for her. Why "convert" her when it's working?

[Songwriter]

... I don't feel like I should spend time sending low carb propaganda to people who are successfully eating another way.

In my original post, I said...

I don't want to change his mind just to change his mind, I only want to help him do the thing that will work long-term. At this point, I'm convinced PP is it.

So, the question is Do I owe it to him to teach him what I know? This is not something I am forcing on him or anyone. We started looking for a way to improve health, lose weight kind of as a pact, simultaneously. I am the one who chose to spend such a large amount of time searching for the right choices. He was open to whatever. Along the way, PP came into the picture. By the time it did, he was doing LFHC.

With our family history, we certainly need to do what is good to prevent heart disease. Too late for me, I got it. IF LFHC is not a good choice to prevent heart disease, I would feel a certain amount of responsibility to share that info. And it appears to me that PP is superior.

He just got blood tests back and his before/after lipid profiles are really good (he was on SAD diet, changing to LFHC). And he's losing weight readily. The problem I saw was riding a horse that will get sick long-term. I dunno, beats me. But if you look at ME, over a multi-year period in the 90s, I had many, many blood tests. On SAD diet, LFHC diet, vegetarian and PP. And on the PP plan, my blood profile was better than with any other way. And he and I have the same genes.

Actually, I was posting, wondering if people would post pearls of wisdom regarding why LFHC will likely not work long-term. I've read so much, my head swims. I can come up with some good ammo but I posted it because others often make good points. I was thinking this family member situation would be a common thing. He and I don't even live in the same city; I would think this would be a common request -- how do I convince my family member that LFHC, which the media and medicine are pounding into your head 24/7, will likely not work long-term?

I'm tired or reading my own words, carry on.

[Songwriter]

Okay, so, you guys seem to be saying that different types of plans are fine and dandy if they work for that person. That is surprising to me. I would think you would subscribe more to the "PP is clearly the way to go."

I've said many times that it's a quagmire out there, it's hart to figure out what is good and what is bad. I realize that. But then you have the Eades and others, pleading their case. Which makes sense to me.

I'm no expert but one thing I would caution ANYone regarding any results they or anyone may have achieved is that a few years, even several years, is not definitive. And we also need very large numbers or subjects, don't we.

Let me ask you this... if we could do a study and track two large groups of people -- one on LFHC diets and the other on PP diets -- for their lifetime, do you think the PP people would have healthier, more robust lives, with less disease, living longer? Or not?

(I'm truly curious what you think... again, enlighten me.)

[Tad]

I think that the research cited by the Eades' and their own practice and experimentation demonstrates that PP is the way to go for optimal health short-term and long-term. However I don't think that converting your brother is realistically going to happen until he hits an obstacle. Maybe his weight loss will plateau; maybe he'll start feeling hungry all the time; maybe after another visit to the doctor he'll find his HDL is down, triglycerides are up, or blood pressure is climbing. At that point he may remember your advice and seek more.

Don't forget that, unlike most programs (HC or even LC), PP takes into account all aspects of health, not just weight. Being overfat is regarded more as a symptom of metabolic syndrome than as the source of poor health.

[kpow]

Bill, check out the "low carb study" article that's posted in the challenges forum. It was done long-term, 20 years I think, albeit done with women.

Kathy

[Bangs]

Bill, IMO the best way to teach anything is to lead by example. When, and if, your brother is ready to try something different from his current approach, THEN he will be ready to listen, and only then.

[Viking Dan]

Its also wrong to project your symptoms/metabolism on someone else. Some people (for whatever reason---damn them :P ) can lose weight painlessly without extreme measures.

[Newbirth]

Okay, so, you guys seem to be saying that different types of plans are fine and dandy if they work for that person. That is surprising to me. I would think you would subscribe more to the "PP is clearly the way to go."

I've said many times that it's a quagmire out there, it's hart to figure out what is good and what is bad. I realize that. But then you have the Eades and others, pleading their case. Which makes sense to me.

I'm no expert but one thing I would caution ANYone regarding any results they or anyone may have achieved is that a few years, even several years, is not definitive. And we also need very large numbers or subjects, don't we.

Let me ask you this... if we could do a study and track two large groups of people -- one on LFHC diets and the other on PP diets -- for their lifetime, do you think the PP people would have healthier, more robust lives, with less disease, living longer? Or not?

(I'm truly curious what you think... again, enlighten me.)
My personal belief is to not mess with someone's success, no matter what diet they are on, provided it's not horribly unhealthy. I have no desire to convert my Mom. She's done well on her chosen plan, her cholesterol is in line - why mess with it? My sister eats tons of pasta and has better cholesterol number than me (we compared!) - I have no reason to convert her. She doesn't have the metabolic issues and propensity to diabetes that I have.

(BTW, since WW is also a low-calorie diet I don't think it can be called high-carb. It slashes the fat sure, but it slashes everything when the calories are slashed.)

Low-carb works FOR ME. That doesn't mean that it's the best diet for every human being on the planet.

[joanneb608]

Bill, I pretty much agree with a lot of the foregoing - that a person has to see their real need of something before they are motivated to change their program. I don't deny also that whatever he is doing may be working for him as far as the results he wants to see.

That being said, I DO firmly believe that although certain individuals may achieve results and better their overall health with "whatever" they are following, I think there is a stronger case to be made in favor of the PP plan for longterm metabolic improvement changes. Over the years, I have lost TONS of "weight" with lots of different approaches and been apparently in good health. The problem I see with most plans that don't pointedly restrict carbs, is that there really is no insulin reduction, or nor much, on a daily basis. I believe that there is much evidence for slightly elevated insulin in one's system on a regular basis, as being responsible for a whole host of disorders, whether you see them sooner or later on. I think that some day more research will bear out pretty much all of what the Eades have proposed.

[deirdra]

I think that the research cited by the Eades' and their own practice and experimentation demonstrates that PP is the way to go for optimal health short-term and long-term. However I don't think that converting your brother is realistically going to happen until he hits an obstacle. Maybe his weight loss will plateau; maybe he'll start feeling hungry all the time; maybe after another visit to the doctor he'll find his HDL is down, triglycerides are up, or blood pressure is climbing. At that point he may remember your advice and seek more.

Don't forget that, unlike most programs (HC or even LC), PP takes into account all aspects of health, not just weight. Being overfat is regarded more as a symptom of metabolic syndrome than as the source of poor health.I heartily agree with this. You cannot convert your brother, he needs to decide for himself, and he will probably not consider LC until HC stops working for him. Just be there for him and lead by example when it happens.

[2bthinner!]

He might switch over when his tris are sky high and yours are under 100.:thumbsup: It's not only a weight loss issue, it's also a health issue. But, I wouldn't push it too hard. Get your blood work done and share it with him. It WILL be impressive.. After all, you wouldn't want him to push you into high carb.