Question on Lab Results -- "Insulin Resistance"

[BawdyWench]

After gaining quite a bit of weight for no apparent reason, I sought medical help. The Nurse Practitioner (NP) I saw "diagnosed" me with adrenal burnout after talking with me for 5 minutes. (I'm beginning to think "adrenal burnout" is the new TMJ -- EVERYONE seems to have it.)

Anyway, she had me do an Adrenal Stress Index test, where you take samples of your saliva upon arising (fasting), around noon (about an hour after eating), before dinner, and at midnight. Because of my schedule, my times didn't match this exactly, but somewhat close.

The question I have involves the test they did for insulin. My fasting level was <3 (normal is 3 - 12); my post-prandial (after eating) level was also <3 (normal of 5 - 20). Both depressed, with the post-prandial level being the most depressed and out of range.

Here's what the lab wrote by way of explanation:
Depressed post-prandial insulin within four hours after meal. This may be caused by a small carbohyddrate load in the preceding challenge meal or a reduction in pancreatic insulin release or synthesis. Consider a closer examination of challenge meal composition to rule out pre-diabetic tendencies.

Insulin activity is affected by the stress and cortisol responses. Chronic stress with cortisol elevation antagonizes insulin, and may cause functional insulin resistance. Furthermore, chronic hypercortisol causes hyperinsulin repsonses to carbohydrate intake. Chronic insulin resistance and overproduction lead to pancreatic exhaustion.The "challenge" meal they recommend is 50 grams of carbs. Heck, I don't get that in a whole day (or two or three!). Also, I was not told to eat anything different -- nothing in the instructions for the test, and my NP didn't tell me to eat anything special either.

I had this test done twice, several months apart, with the same results. The first time I was on a diet proposed by the NP. Lunch that day consisted of 17 grams of protein, 23 grams of carbs, and 3 grams of fat. The second time I did the test, lunch was more like 34 grams of protein, no carbs, and 13 grams of fat (not sure, since I didn't record what I ate, BUT I had gone back to low-carb eating).

So, what does this all mean? They were looking for my insulin levels to be much higher. Could it be that this is normal for a LC eater? That the levels they're looking for are more indicative of a high-carb eater?

Could someone please explain this to me?

[BawdyWench]

PS: After the first results were back, my cortisol was depressed upon arising and at noon. In the afternoon it climbed back into normal range. So, she put me on licorice root, Isocort, and a slew of other supplements "for adrenal support." This caused me to gain yet another 20 pounds in a matter of months.

At the second test, my cortisol levels were through the roof! Upon arising, the first test was 12 (normal range 13 - 24), so just a little out of range. The second test the reading was 110! All other readings were also out of range, though not quite as bad as the first.

Here are the cortisol readings from both tests:
Upon arising (normal range is 13 - 24)
First test: 12
Second test: 110
Noon after eating (normal range 5 - 10)
First test: 3
Second test: 17
Afternoon (normal range 3 - 8)
First test: 7
Second test 15
Night (normal range 1-4)
First test: 3
Second test: 5
Thoughts? (BTW, I dropped all the supps. Ya think?!?!?!?!?!)

[Gabriel Guzman]

Were you on a nutritional plan like this before you were diagnosed with adrenal burnout?

[BawdyWench]

I've been LCing since around 1999 (typically 20 - 40 ECC a day). Basic, standard, low-carber. Menopause made me gain about 20 pounds, which is when I went to the NP and she told me I had adrenal burnout. Get this ... she said Protein Power and Atkins are fad diets because they're too low in fat and they cause metabolic problems! She wanted me to do Schwarzbein at 90 carbs a day.

She wanted me to do the Michael Thurmond "6-Day Body Makeover." It was in the middle of this 6-day period that I did my first test. My eating that week was approximately 700 - 800 calories, 10 grams of fat, 78 grams of carbs, and 94 grams of protein. Needless to say, I was famished and cranky.

For the re-test, I was typical LC again -- actually, I had been very low carb for a while again (less than 10 grams of carbs per day).

Does that help?

[BawdyWench]

PS: I lost 40 pounds LCing (down to 151), and had been "maintaining" with maybe a 10-pound fluctuation for several years prior to hitting age 50 and gaining the first 20 pounds with menopause (no change in eating or exercising). After the first ASI, she put me on all those supplements, and I quickly gained another 20 pounds.

[sueo]

So what does the NP say now that you've dropped all the supplements?

[BawdyWench]

She doesn't know yet! :rolleyes: I have an appointment for Thursday morning.

When I got the second set of results, I called the office and talked to one of the other nurses (mine was busy). She told me to stop the supplements with the exception of one -- the Isocort. I stopped that one, too. I also stopped a bunch of other supplements she had me on. I was spending about $133 per month on supplements (all conveniently supplied by her office) -- that came to almost $800 from the time of the first test to the time of the second test.

I have finally started to lose some of the weight. I'm down 7 pounds in the past three days (I know that won't last). I'm doing equal percentages of protein and fat, and less than 20 carbs a day (gee, does this sound familiar?).

She's not going to like that. She wants me at 90 grams of carbs MINIMUM per day. At this point, though, I don't much care what she says.

I'm pretty well convinced this will be my last appointment with her. I'm just really curious what she has to say. Look at it this way, my cortisol levels were minimally depressed before starting her treatment regimen. Six months later, my cortisol levels were through the roof. I needed a slight nudge, and she launched me into outer space!

[Relief]

so--what happened at your appointment? I am REALLY disgusted by the way you were handled-- i.e the assumptions that were made. ( "oh... you are one of those LOW CARBERS... you must have severe adrenal fatigue cause WE KNOW low carbing causes that")

You didn't say if your saliva was tested for all the other homones and if you were given test of thyroid including free t3 free t4 as well as tsh and possibly a reverse T3 as well. without ALL the tests they don't really have a clue as to the whole picture-- plus your original cortisol pattern of depressed in the morning and "rising " in the afternoon is absolutely not typical of most adrenal fatigue people its usually the oposite so that should hae been a red flag to look for other " stuff" going on. PLUS you should have been followed up MUCH more closely to see if your symptoms were stablilizing.

just my opinion of course--but there is good help out there ( I found some thank the lord and they were THRILLED by my WOE--they seldom see anybody who is already eating the way they recommend) and I really thought these "women to women" folks were among the good guys.... sigh.

p.s. I have sent you a PM

[BawdyWench]

Thanks, Relief. I've answered the PM. I'll put most of the response here, too:

I am so frustrated with W2W. I went yesterday morning. She asked how I was feeling, I said "better." She asked how I've been sleeping, I said "better." She says it sounds like I'm doing well. I said, "well, other than the ADDITIONAL 20 pounds I've gained since you prescribed all those supplements."

She looked up and was shocked. The supplements didn't do that, she said. So I asked, Then why are my cortisol levels so high? Oh, it's high because your body is pumping out more cortisol. (Duh.) But, I said, it's pumping it out because of the supplements. No, she said, it doesn't work that way. Then why did you give me supplements? To raise your cortisol, she said. But the supplements didn't make my cortisol high? No.

Huh?

So I started asking another question and she interrupted me and said, "Well I'm not going to argue with you." I said, very calmly, I'm not arguing, I'm trying to understand.

She was saying both things at the same time.

Then she said I gained weight because I'm overeating and my metabolism has tanked. That's when she laid down the rules: NO SUGAR! CARBS BELOW 100!

Who the heck did she think she was talking to? At our last appointment she was arguing with me because I wasn't eating ENOUGH carbs. It's like she never looked at my history. If she had, she would have seen that I've been low-carbing for a good 6 or 7 years now, and that I had been staying below 20 grams of carbs for a good long time.

It's like she wasn't even listening to me. She must have said "no sugar" about 6 times, like she didn't believe what I was telling her.

So, on my own I've stopped all the supplements she prescribed other than the multi and the fish oil. (On my own I take borage oil, potassium, and magnesium.)

I'm going back to what has worked for me in the past. Low carb (below 20 grams per day), no alcohol, and moderate exercise.

I started this last Friday (October 6) and to date I have lost 7 pounds. I just hope this does the trick.

[Missy]

Sorry your going through so much Bawdy! I feel for you! I hope it gets straighted out soon! I HATE IT when your such a proactive patient that's knowledgable...and it feels like they don't even listen to you...or your just the "latest" patient in the room!

[LisaS]

maybe the NP graduated from the Joseph Heller school of nursing:

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to.
Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
"That's some catch, that Catch-22," he [Yossarian] observed.
"It's the best there is," Doc Daneeka agreed.

[laughingW]

What a horrible tale. Thank you for bringing it here so I can join the indignation party.

I found an ND I really like who has a practice and makes himself available through the Internet within the limits of what we can do with email. Testing and all. Dr. Garrett Smith. He's knowledgable about all this and even long distance, was the first and only health caregiver to find and fix an iodine insufficiency for me. He advises on the Crossfit Nutrition board and if you read some of his past posts, you'll see why I wanted to give him a shot.

[BawdyWench]

Yea, she just keeps saying how she's been doing this for 25 years, blah, blah, blah! She's writing a book, she says, about all of this. I'll be sure to pass it by when (if) it's ever published.

[BawdyWench]

Oops! I responded before seeing the last two posts. Catch-22 is darned close. So frustrating, though.

I'll look into that doctor. What's an ND? A typo? Did you mean MD?

But I'm still curious about the test results for insulin resistance. Anyone have any idea on that?

[joanneb608]

Hi Bawdy,

From perusing your thread, it seems to me that you have far more knowledge and better sense about what to eat than your "doctor" does. That seems to almost be the norm!!:rolleyes:

She sounds like a madly conflicted person:nod:!!!

Just think how much money you'll be saving now without the office visits and all her supplements! And of course, if you pass by that lovely book too, there's an additional savings!

[BawdyWench]

You're right. I need to look on the bright side. In the past 6 months, I've spent almost $800 in supplements. But I forgot about the two Schwarzbein books she wanted me to buy -- again, from her! I don't think there was a markup, but still. What a racket!

And get this. Instead of having to drive down to their office every time I needed more supplements, they said they could mail them to me. On every order there was a charge of $18 for "shipping and handling." The postage on the package was usually around $6.50." Again, what a racket!

Going in to the appointment, I decided I'd listen to her take on the situation, and then make up my own mind what I wanted to do. In earlier appointments, she had mentioned she wanted me to do a cleanse diet called Isagenix, not sure for how long -- the one-week plan is $89, and the one-month plan is almost $400. It's all supplements and shakes and bars. No thank you!

At my last physical when I was discussing all this with my regular doctor (whom I really like and respect), he told me that he had other female patients who had gone to W2W, and that they all had negative experiences. Now I know why.

[Relief]

did she EVER give you an explanation of why your cortisol was so high? and was she concerned at ALL that it WAS so high? Did she just atribute it to stress? ( again if she did, she is so confused-- first she said your adrenals were exhasuted by stress so they couldn't produce enough cortisol--and now they are pumping out enough for four people--again because of STRESS?) I must say I personally DO agree that the supplements did NOT CAUSE the elevated cortisol-- they really DON'T work that well-- (oh that they did --it actually can take YEARS to heal exhausted adrenal using those supps. I also don't think you needed all of them either--just saying) There has to be some other underlying cause--for your cortisol levels and your inability to lose/ tendency to gain-- that she is absolutely blind to due to her obvious pre-judgement and inability to LISTEN.

congrats on the 7 pounds actually--hope that it continues for you.

if you DO start to gain again--while eating the same way--seriously look at your thyroid and at the cushings stuff I pm's you about. There really is help out there. It's too bad that we have to become our own doctors/be so proactive about diagnosis -- but it is looking more and more like that is the case.
about the insulin thing--I'll bet those "normal" values are based on a high carb meal/diet and are valueless for you. and the little explanatory paragraph that is printed is a computer generated thing that gets tacked on automatically when values are within certain ranges. as far as I know Dr Mike says the lower your insulin the better. It is only bad if you are un-able to pump out enough insulin to handle whatever your blood glucose is. low insulin plus high blood sugar is bad. low insulin--because you don't NEED any more is good.--get it? why don't you email him and see if he has any thoughts about it.--I think that it is something he might like to answer as it could come up for a lot of people.

[Gaelen]

Bawdy, an ND is the academic degree for an Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine). Some MDs are also NDs, but many NDs do not have the MD.

You were primarily seeing the nurse-practicioner at W2W, right? Not the doctor? Since you do like your regular doctor, is there any special reason you went to W2W and didn't just ask him to handle the endocrine issues?

I think your 'insulin resistance' test results were a bit skewed, and I'd be curious what they'd be if you just dropped all of the supplements for six months and then had a baseline run for hematology, chemistry, liver enzymes and thyroid levels. 0.1 under or over 'norms' is meaningless in lab results unless you get that same result from more than one lab and multiple consecutive tests. Those ranges are reference ranges, and 0.1-0.4 is considered too small a variance to be significant because with another lab's reference ranges, you might even be *normal.* The second set is under different circumstances (post supplements) and should just be thrown out IMO. YMMV.

[BawdyWench]

Lordy! So many questions. Let's see if I can hit them all.

Did she EVER give you an explanation of why your cortisol was so high? and was she concerned at ALL that it WAS so high? Did she just atribute it to stress? ( again if she did, she is so confused-- first she said your adrenals were exhasuted by stress so they couldn't produce enough cortisol--and now they are pumping out enough for four people--again because of STRESS?) I must say I personally DO agree that the supplements did NOT CAUSE the elevated cortisol-- they really DON'T work that well-- (oh that they did --it actually can take YEARS to heal exhausted adrenal using those supps. I also don't think you needed all of them either--just saying) There has to be some other underlying cause--for your cortisol levels and your inability to lose/ tendency to gain-- that she is absolutely blind to due to her obvious pre-judgement and inability to LISTEN.

She said the cortisol was high because my body is pumping out a lot of cortisol and that obviously I have a lot of stress in my life. Funny, my blood pressure was a solid 118/80, down from about 134/90 (due to menopause, I'm sure, since I've always been around 113/70 in the past), but she didn't even mention that this time. Last time, she said my blood pressure was too high and that I could bring it down by relaxation techniques, loving myself more, etc. Funny how that was lower (implying I'm having less stress) but my cortisol is higher (which she attributed to MORE stress).

Maybe the supps didn't do all that, but the fact is, I'm starting to lose now, after stopping them all.

If you DO start to gain again--while eating the same way--seriously look at your thyroid and at the cushings stuff I pm's you about.

My throid panel is high, but no one wants to treat it, even after I mention the new ranges from the (whatever that endocrinology association is called). Here are my results:
Thyroid ("normal" range in parens)
ccccc TSH: 3.84 (0.3 - 5.0)
ccccc Free T3: 2.4 (2.0 to 3.5)
ccccc Free T4: 1.1 (0.6 - 1.2)
I suppose if asked, my doctor would give me a referral, but what if he refers me to someone of "the old school"? I'd be wasting his/her AND my time once more.

About the insulin thing--I'll bet those "normal" values are based on a high carb meal/diet and are valueless for you.

That's pretty much the way I've been thinking, but I wanted someone else to say it first.

Bawdy, an ND is the academic degree for an Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Naturopathic_Medicine). Some MDs are also NDs, but many NDs do not have the MD.

You were primarily seeing the nurse-practicioner at W2W, right? Not the doctor? Since you do like your regular doctor, is there any special reason you went to W2W and didn't just ask him to handle the endocrine issues?

Come to think of it, I knew that about the ND. I just forgot.

I was seeing a nurse practitioner ato W2W, not the doctor there. I had heard good things about W2W, that they listen when others don't. My regular doctor did all the thyroid tests, but didn't want to treat me because I was in the normal range from the lab. Again, maybe (if I have no luck losing now) I'll ask to see an endocrinologist when I see my doctor again. My physical is scheduled for November 29, so it's coming right up. That will also give me a good amount of time to see if I can get back on track with weight loss, now that I've stopped the supplements.

Of course, the problem with gaining started prior to starting any of the supplements. Still, it could have been a temporary menopause kind of stall that I'm now past. Who knows.

I'd be curious what they'd be if you just dropped all of the supplements for six months and then had a baseline run for hematology, chemistry, liver enzymes and thyroid levels.

I had all these tests done last December prior to starting the supplements. The thyroid was as noted above. By the way, my doctor also at that time gave me a blood test for cortisol (baseline, after 30 minutes, and after 1 hour). My baseline was smack in the middle of normal (14, range of 5 - 21), after 30 minutes (35, range of 14 - 36), and after 60 minutes (41.5, range of 14 - 41). My doctor interpreted this as not only normal, but a good indication that my body was functioning ideally.

As for other test results, everything was normal except for sodium (low at 135, range of 136 - 145) and BUN (high, range of 5 - 20).

My lipid panel is excellent:
Lipid Panel (ideal range in parens):
ccccc Total cholesterol: 206 (below 200)
ccccc LDL: 121 (below 130)
ccccc HDL: 73 (above 45)
ccccc Triglycerides: 62 (below 200)
ccccc Total divided by HDL: 2.82 (below 4.5)
ccccc LDL divided by HDL: 1.66 (below 3)
ccccc Triglycerides divided by HDL: .85 (below 2)
The second set is under different circumstances (post supplements) and should just be thrown out IMO.

Maybe I wasn't clear. The second set of tests were taken after 6 months of being on the supps. I stopped the supps AFTER getting the test results.

Phew. That was a lot of typing. Too bad spot reducing doesn't work -- if it did, I'd have really skinny fingers!!!

:D

[Gaelen]

She said the cortisol was high because my body is pumping out a lot of cortisol and that obviously I have a lot of stress in my life. Funny, my blood pressure was a solid 118/80, down from about 134/90 (due to menopause, I'm sure, since I've always been around 113/70 in the past), but she didn't even mention that this time. Last time, she said my blood pressure was too high and that I could bring it down by relaxation techniques, loving myself more, etc. Funny how that was lower (implying I'm having less stress) but my cortisol is higher (which she attributed to MORE stress).

Bawdy, I know I don't have to tell you that everyone is different...but you actually *can* have what appears to be normal blood pressure, and yet have higher levels of cortisol that are elevated because of stress. BP doesn't always elevate during stress. And sometimes it elevates without stress. In fact, until my BP does something totally weird, most of my docs no longer pay any attention to it. They treat it like a marker--but it has to be either exceptionally low such as <80/60 or exceptionally high >145/98 for them to blink. ;)

My throid panel is high, but no one wants to treat it, even after I mention the new ranges from the (whatever that endocrinology association is called). Here are my results:
Thyroid ("normal" range in parens)
TSH: 3.84 (0.3 - 5.0)
Free T3: 2.4 (2.0 to 3.5)
Free T4: 1.1 (0.6 - 1.2)


Bawdy, sorry, but I'm with your doc...there's nothing in those number's that's high. Remember, 0.1-0.4 is normal variation. That doesn't mean you might not be experiencing some endocrine issues, but your thyroid numbers are fine.

By the way, my doctor also at that time gave me a blood test for cortisol (baseline, after 30 minutes, and after 1 hour). My baseline was smack in the middle of normal (14, range of 5 - 21), after 30 minutes (35, range of 14 - 36), and after 60 minutes (41.5, range of 14 - 41). My doctor interpreted this as not only normal, but a good indication that my body was functioning ideally.

Probably not what you want to hear, but our bodies DO change over time...what are the odds that your doc's assessment of those tests last December was correct? Just because we're not happy with our body's current state doesn't always mean that something isn't correctly functioning...

As for other test results, everything was normal except for sodium (low at 135, range of 136 - 145) and BUN (high, range of 5 - 20).

Did your doc pursue or even get curious about why your sodium was low or your BUN was high? Because bottom line, both indicate something out of balance.

Phew. That was a lot of typing. Too bad spot reducing doesn't work -- if it did, I'd have really skinny fingers!!!:D

LOL...unfortunately, the more I type the *less* skinny my fingers get!

[BawdyWench]

Thanks, Gaelen, for responding so quickly!

That's interesting what you say about stress as it relates to both cortisol and blood pressure.

About the thyroid test. I was basing my opinion on this:

Since late 2002, however, the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists (AACE) and other professional groups have recommended a narrower range of .3 to 3.0. This means that hyperthyroidism is suspected at TSH levels below .3, and 3.0 and above are now considered diagnostic of hypothyroidism.

According to this, I'm in the range of hypoT. I've also talked to people who say their endos try to keep patients around 1.0 for best health.

Also, what you said about the test results last year might not have been correct. I was thinking more like the recent tests might not have been correct. Who knows. It's hard to know what to believe any more.

About the sodium and BUN results. He didn't mention either of these. The sodium is only just out of range. I've done some research on the BUN, and it said it could be high if you're on a high-protein diet. Well, I'm not on a high-protein diet, per se, but when my ratio of protein to carbs is compared to that of a person following a typical high-carb eating regimen, then you COULD say I was on a high-protein diet.

BTW, my doctor didn't have an issue when I told him I was doing a low-carb plan. He was all for it. I'm not sure what he actually RECOMMENDS to his other patients, but he certainly didn't have a problem with my plan.

[BawdyWench]

I wanted to add, too, that I hear you when you say, "Just because we're not happy with our body's current state doesn't always mean that something isn't correctly functioning."

It feels like I've been chasing a diagnosis (ANY diagnosis) for the past year. It may just be that menopause has brought disorder to my hormones and that I just need to tread water to get through it. I do feel as though I'm coming out of it now, so maybe that's what it was.

[Bangs]

This means that hyperthyroidism is suspected at TSH levels below .3, and 3.0 and above are now considered diagnostic of hypothyroidism.

Yes, exactly. However, most practitioners, even endocrinologists are way behind in applying this information. It doesn't appear they tested you for thyroid antibodies, either.

Adrenal and thyroid issues often go hand in hand, and being hypoT would help explain the weight gain you experienced. Adrenal hormones are also needed for proper thyroid function. Here's a site I found helpful.
www.stopthethyroidmadess.com (http://www.stopthethyroidmadess.com) Some good info on adrenal/thyroid relationship, too.

In spite of the nurse practitioner's apparent stupidity, she may have been on the right track with Schwarzbein, who writes extensively about healing adrenal and thyroid issues as naturally as possible. What she doesn't know, evidently is that Schwarzbein is VERY low carb friendly.

I'm in the process myself of gathering all this information to take to my own doctor. Honestly, I'm expecting some of what you experienced at W2W.

[BawdyWench]

Schwarzbein is low-carb more along the lines of South Beach, not Protein Power or Atkins. My NP (and the book) recommend 90 grams of carbs a day. I'd blow up like a balloon if I did that. The only way I've ever been able to lose pounds is by keeping carbs 20 or less. More, and I gain weight and start having horrible cravings.

Schwarzbein is also against saturated fat.

The NP wanted me to eat oatmeal, brown rice, or sweet potatoes with every meal. At least that's what she said the first two times I saw her. Just the other day she made a point of saying I should NOT have any starchy foods with dinner.

Thanks for the link. I'll take a look, but I've pretty much decided on what I'm going to do.

I hear you, too, about thinking you're going to have the same experience. Although my doctor likes that I do my own research and come to the appointments prepared, you can also see that there's a line. If he happens to have read the same thing, that's great. If he HASN'T read it yet, well, it's suspicious.

[Bangs]

Schwarzbein is low-carb more along the lines of South Beach, not Protein Power or Atkins.
Oh, my mistake! I thought I remembered that she recommended no more than 15 carbs/meal in her original book, but it's been a long time.

If he happens to have read the same thing, that's great. If he HASN'T read it yet, well, it's suspicious.
So true. I had that experience several times with various Drs. over bio-identical hormones. I'm going to a new guy later this month and we'll see if he's willing to come along for the ride on other issues as well. Hard to find someone who is 1) knowledgeable 2) within reasonable distance, and 3) takes my insurace!

I wish you much success in healing. If you have a plan, I say Go for it.

[BawdyWench]

Actually, 15 grams per meal (AND snack) is one of her plans. You can have two or three snacks, so that's up to 90 grams a day. This is the level my NP wanted to do. In the first book, though, it's a minimum of 20 per meal and snack, and if you're active it's even more.

I think the 15-gram limit per meal/snack comes in the third book.

Still, when you're accustomed to having only 15 OR LESS in an entire day, this is a ton of carbs. Grains, especially, cause cravings for me. I'm better of having none than just a bit.

[laughingW]

When I first started with Schwarzbein it was 15 g per meal and 7 g for two snacks, and if you picked the carbs right and factored in ECC, it could be like 10 ECC per meal and 5 for snacks. Not that much more than PP.

The take-away I got from my own body's response to that experiment was that I really do feel better at a certain protein/carb ratio. Giant amounts of protein and very little carb, not so good. Giant amounts of carb in any combo, not so good.

But - I also do better with longer times between meals (exaggerated 2d phase insulin response and all that).

And, I now think my thyroid problems were pretty darn simple. Iodine deficiency makes it not work right and I added moderate exercise. I wish I had gotten with a knowledgable naturopath right away, now, but I didn't know how then, and I didn't understand how completely one can fix things with food inputs. Still thought a disordered endocrine system was a medical thing, and I don't think that now for me, outside of tumor or trauma.

[Bangs]

Aha. Snacks, too? Thanks for the clarification.

You have 15 or less carbs a day? Wow is all I can say. Everyone is different, though, and I am all for "whatever works." After all, I'm a renegade Zoner, LOL!! (I do think I'd miss my latte, though;)) I agree about grains and cravings, though. I have to be very, very careful there, too.

Your NP is writing a book? LOL!

[Bangs]

LaughingW, we were cross posting. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm glad you've been able to take care of your endocrine problems in a more natural manner. That's always best when possible. I've been a "do it yourself" myself project for years and have discovered and for the most part remedied quite a few interesting things, however, I know I'm missing a piece or two of the puzzle. So....off we go. Life is always interesting, isn't it?