How do I deal with an addict? [Archive]

Bogie

09-18-2006, 03:50 AM

I mean, sheesh! While she was in the hospital this last time, I cleaned Jen's house, somewhat, of chocolate. Neither of her kids are "eaters," but there were bowls of candy all over, and chocolate, etc., stashed all through her part of the house.

In the hospital, while recovering from some seriously ugly surgery, with some really gnarsty complications, she was watching the food channel.

Had an ER visit on Friday, really bad pain, uncontrollable vomiting, etc.

Saturday, on painkillers, she's sitting in my recliner at _my_ house (refrigerator contains condiments, beer, diet tonic water, eggs, sausage, burger and cheese...), and watching the damn food channel.

Sunday, she gets all bent outta shape, because even with the surgery, she didn't lose any weight for the past month and a half - in fact, she's gained a couple of pounds. Of course, since she was severely malnourished, when they hooked her up to the J-tube for direct-to-intestine feeding (you really don't wanna know how it works...), and started literally pumping approx 1,000-1,200 calories/day of "balanced" diet at her, her body went nutzo... Interesting thing is that she lost about 3-4+" in the waist during this period of time, but she's still upset about the additional weight, and getting her to eat ANYTHING is a battle. I suspect that the stuff they were pumping had enough protein and fat, along with the "instant calorie" carbs...

And at the same time, the food channel's on the living room TV...

If you even CONSIDER this damn surgery, I _will_ kick your ass, because I don't really like intelligent slow learners, okay?

Billie

09-18-2006, 07:02 AM

Bogie I must have missed one of your posts, did she have bariatric surgery? I saw the one about going to the doctors office but I wasn't sure exactly if that was what was going on.

You know you are right unless a person mends their habits doing the surgery route is just risking your life not living it. We all have done a good job of putting off the hard work in getting healthy, she is no different than any of us. The addiction thing maybe working, not always sure that it is addiction or bad and lazy habits, at least on my part.

Hang in!

Gaelen

09-18-2006, 07:18 AM

Bogie...she may be an addict, but the bowls of candy speak more to that than constantly watching FoodTV. After all, she can't *eat* food off the TV channel, and it *does* have some entertainment value. ;)

Seriously--if anything, constantly watching FoodTV speaks more to the idea of emotional/mental hunger...and gives a bit of refutation to the idea that when you are essentially in a fasting situation, hunger goes away. Since appetite is triggered by many things, including sight and smell, emotions, and habits, just watching foodtv might be her safest expression of appetite at this moment.

She could just be addicted to TV...what are the odds you could get her moving during one of the typical TV periods each day?

laughingW

09-18-2006, 10:37 AM

Best source for treatment and understanding of food addiction, IMHO, is DesMaisons' radiantrecovery.com.

Or, if you can stand the vegan overtones, "Breaking the Food Seduction" by one of the PCRM docs.

Addiction is both physical and mental. If you were to go to Al-Anon to find out how to deal with an addict loved one, much of it applies. They have online groups.

It's completely normal for the non-addict loved ones to finally get angry and impatient and write the addict off, like I hear in your post. Sorry you have to have that - I know it's really frustrating.

gitfiddle

09-18-2006, 11:12 AM

I'm a food addict and I had years of OA, understand the Radiant Recovery, and I think you should go to Al-Anon, Bogie, if you really want to learn how to handle this. The flip side of trying to fix someone is becoming an enabler and making excuses for them. Either way, you can become as sick as they are.

Keep in mind that unless the addict wants to change, no change will happen.

BTW, I rarely watch the Food Channel unless they're talking about coffee or tea. Certainly not chocolate or how twinkies are made. Addiction is a sleeping tiger and all that does is blow a horn in his ear.

Bogie

09-18-2006, 12:43 PM

Thing is, she's FAR from stupid, and knows that she's gonna have a LOT of problems if she doesn't eat right.

Thing is, food = love... Bad relationship from hell, and her family are all sorta distant toward folks... If there's an activity, or a gift, candy is involved.

And she won't eat what she doesn't like. Protein shakes are yuckky... I've tried to explain that she no longer has the luxury of eating only tasty stuff, but...

I think the original bypass was sold to her as just another diet... a quick fix. She keeps telling me that she'll eventually be able to eat normally again. She's got an uncle that it worked for, thus far. She's had major problems. Docs are not communicating... They don't feel comfortable talking with her (the deaf thing...), and they seem a little reluctant to talk to me... We'll call them, and it's always "give it some time, and wait, and it'll get better." Damn hard to deal with when she's even puking water...

Gaelen

09-18-2006, 04:26 PM

Bogie...is *she* seeing a counselor?
I know that my friend who just had lap-band surgery had to see a counselor before and during and after the surgery.
Seems that I'd heard the same thing for bypass patients...or is there an issue with counseling because of compliance on her part, or finding a counselor who can communicate effectively with a deaf patient?

It sounds like while you may need some solid 'how to's', *she* should be seeing a professional counselor at this point, too. "Food = Love," and thinking that she'll eventually be able to eat normally again don't sound like a recipe for success to me.

Bogie

09-18-2006, 11:25 PM

From what I understand, the place who sold her on it the first time had her "prove that she wanted to lose the weight" by going on a liquid diet and losing 10%... Okay...

http://www.stalexiushospital.com/Default.aspx?tabid=60

http://www.obesityhelp.com/morbidobesity/bariatric+surgeon+reviews+Norbert+Richardson+fqk.h tml?page=5

Let's see... At 40 patients/week, and 40 weeks/year (numbers which seems low, when compared to what I read on their sites), these guys are cranking a gross of about $22,000,000/year. Their office staff promptly quit caring about anything regarding insurance after they got paid - Jen's FMLA disability took two months to get through, because the office staff kept saying "It's not my job" to get the reports to the insurance company. And now she's to the "long term" section, and "it's not my job" either.

This is frustrating as all hell...

Gaelen

09-19-2006, 07:25 AM

hmm...Bogie...what would happen if Jen showed up at the advertised "Public Welcome" support group meeting on 9/20?

I'm guessing she wouldn't have to do anything more involved than show up and *be* visual testimony to what can go wrong for some things to turn around...for some people in the audience, for some people in the surgeon's office/hospital, and most important, for Jen.

And if that doesn't work...maybe a call to the most aggressive health reporter at the local news station?

SherryJ

09-19-2006, 10:10 AM

Well, I was going to say maybe it was time to "pull a Bogie", but Gaelen, I LOVE those ideas!

Would she do it, Bogie? :D

Thinking of you... and her!

Sherry

Bogie

09-19-2006, 11:53 PM

Back in the hospital today... Throwing up whenever she drinks something.

sueo

09-20-2006, 03:32 PM

Does she have a stricture? That would cause throwing up everything after gastric bypass.

Bogie

09-20-2006, 08:34 PM

Endoscopy tomorrow am, upper gi cocktail after that, lap scopeout if the first two don't find anything.

miralin

09-21-2006, 01:06 AM

*hugs* good luck Bogie to both of you

Gaelen

09-21-2006, 07:19 AM

Jeez, Bogie, I just saw this.
And I repeat, Jen's lucky to have you pulling for her.
I have a 'communication' question--when she has to be hospitalized and they order a slew of tests/procedures like they have for today, does the hospital bring in a deaf interpreter to be *sure* Jen understands what's happening and why? Or are they relying on her ability to lip-read, or written word, or the fact that you're there, or what? It sounds like situations like an ER visit with followup procedures might be an area where they're falling down in communicating?

I was appalled when, after my own surgeries, I discovered that there was NO ONE in a major NYC hospital ICU who could sign, or even recognize common pantomime like "give me pen/paper so I can write something." I was still tubed when I woke up after surgery, and had the tube in for at least 4-5 hours post-surgery. I've been signing since my late teens, so when they tried to communicate I switched to signing--and met blank stares. Not only couldn't anyone in ICU sign, they didn't even recognize that it was signing, nor did they have an interpreter on staff. So I switched to plain pantomime...and the first time, they STILL didn't get it.

This wasn't some backwater hospital, it was Memorial Sloan Kettering. I was blown away...and when I could talk, I called their patient rep to my room and blew her away. The second surgery, it went a bit better, so I guess they made some improvements in the year between. There was still no one who could sign, but they at least recognized that I was trying to communicate. One nurse must have recently played charades. ;) She immediately got me a marker, paper and clipboard...but it still took nearly an hour to get that.

In my much smaller than NYC town, there are basic signing posters EVERYWHERE in the hospitals, and as a medic in the early and mid-80s, I routinely used to switch to sign/pantomime with patients who couldn't talk. Even people who don't know sign language understand pantomime...but no joy at MSKCC. Is the hospital where Jen is today any better?

Bogie

09-21-2006, 08:44 AM

somewhat - without the hearing aids, she can't even hear me snore, but with hearing aids, she gets, I'd guess, 65%...

She doesn't sign. The St. Louis region is one of those places where the main "deaf" education theory was "you're gonna have to fit in," so they pushed lip reading instead of signing.

Major problem is that her family (with 3 kids with varying degrees of deafness), and more to the point, her lowlife ex, tended to dump on her for being deaf... If she didn't understand something, she was dumb. So she made it worse by pretending to understand things, and she does it pretty well, until you make her repeat it back to you... That pisses her off, but hey... I'd rather have her right than happy, you know?

gitfiddle

09-21-2006, 10:55 AM

Praying for you and Jen (and the hospital staff)...

Gaelen

09-21-2006, 11:10 AM

... tended to dump on her for being deaf... If she didn't understand something, she was dumb. So she made it worse by pretending to understand things, and she does it pretty well, until you make her repeat it back to you... That pisses her off, but hey... I'd rather have her right than happy, you know?

Yeah, Bogie, I do. I've been coping with someone who is deaf and has issues about being deaf my whole life. My father had an injury as a teen that caused about 75% hearing loss in one ear, and kept deteriorating throughout adulthood. Only difference is that DAD was the aggressive one. He used to dump on everyone around him for mumbling and not speaking clearly--and to not appear 'dumb' he used to pretend to understand (even when he didn't). Misunderstandings were always someone else's fault for not communicating. :rolleyes:

It wasn't until I got to college and got involved with a speech path grad student that I started to better understand the issues involved. Rob taught our whole group of friends to sign as a way of teaching himself, and eventually I ended up tutoring and interpreting for deaf students, many of whom had stories similar to Jen's.

I taught signing to both of my older nephews, and we've always used it as our secret 'code.' Last fall B. signed something to me, I signed back, and my father jumped into the conversation. He's known how to sign ALL ALONG, and only once dementia took stronger control did he 'forget' that it wasn't okay to sign to hearing people. All those conversations we could have had, so much more easily...but he was too embarrassed to sign to his hearing daughter.

Communication between hearing people gets pretty complex, but add in deafness and perception issues, and information you need can start circling the drain really in a hurry. Hope Jen's doing better after her tests today. Keep us posted.

hawk

09-21-2006, 11:22 AM

Bogie, I have a soundperson friend at my church that was to have the band put around his stomach next week. He had to be on a protien shake diet for awhile first. He lost 28 pounds in a week. He says he cannot live with out variety. I have been talking to him in vain about staying on a protien diet and not having the surgery. His back went out seriously last week and he had disk surgery Tuesday so they postponed the bariatric surgery. He is not real tall but very heavy. He could stand to lose 200. If he has the surgery ,he will not have the variety he wants either will he?? He works in the Tech department of Notre Dame. It makes me sick to think he will go through this surgery and not try for some sort of behaviour modifacation.
After reading these posts about this I am even more sick about it. His very young and very beautiful wife is getting tired of him being in pain and not having fun anymore and has begun to go out without him. I think he is desperate. I love your idea of throwing him in the basement and feeding him jerky. I think I will do it to myself. May work.
A movie where a character played by Bett Middler was kidnapped and held for randsom in a basement with a tv and an excersize bike had much the same results. I cannot recall the name of the movie but it was funny. She thanked her captors.
I am so sorry for your girlfreind . You are surely a super guy to stay by her side and help her through this.

Gaelen

09-21-2006, 05:21 PM

LisaS

09-21-2006, 05:28 PM

and bypass bypasses part of your intestines and disrupts your nutrient absorption - lap band doesn't - just restricts the food pouch.

Bogie

09-21-2006, 08:04 PM

Yeah, well, it's all artificial fixes.

Here's a hint, folks... Eat the way you would have to following ANY sort of surgery, and you'll lose weight.

For free.

Without pain.

Without possibly complications. Please try to talk the guy out of it. Tell him to grow some self esteem, and a pair, and to just gut a diet. It's easier.

Got a call halfway to the hospital... Jen was just getting back from the upper GI... What happened to the endoscopy? Well, the orders said... Sheesh... So...

Walked in, found Jen, found quacks, asked which genius had decided to do the upper GI first, because now she definitely wasn't NPO, and I didn't wanna hear squat (and I was in full-blown bogiemode, and didn't quite use this exact language) that "they weren't able to see what they needed too, so, aww, they wanna do it again..." So...

They flushed, and scoped, and flushed, and scoped, and found a stricture... Ballooned it, and she was drinking okay without pain/nausea when I left a coupla hours ago... It may or may not stay, and they may need to balloon it again next week.

I was scaring myself for a little while there... BTW, the hair's gone, but close-shaved hair with the long beard tends to really freak out a few folks... and if I wanna look scary, it is VERY easy...

hawk

09-21-2006, 09:23 PM

If I ever have to go into surgery... I wnt someone like you in the waiting room to stick up for me.

Bogie

09-23-2006, 09:58 AM

Gaelen

09-23-2006, 10:03 AM

fingers crossed for the pair of you, Bogie...

miralin

09-23-2006, 04:39 PM

bogie, i bet you make killer shakes, waht with all the blenders you've killed ;)

and i'm with hawk - if i ever have surgery again, i want a friend like you waiting for me

hawk

09-23-2006, 10:38 PM

Can you tell her that we are all cheering for her. That we all want her to LIVE. There are alot of hugs here.

cmcole

09-24-2006, 05:24 AM

Let her know, even if she doesn't want to hear it, that you're dedicated to keeping her alive . . . whatever it takes.

laughingW

09-24-2006, 09:06 AM

Doing well, back home, and on shakes. She hates them. And she keeps hearing "you no longer have that option." She wants sweet shit that tastes good. Maybe in a year.

Gonna stop by World Market and pick up a case of sugar free syrup.
She'll be in physical withdrawal and brain reregulating for a while.

This is the problem with codependence. If you don't educate yourself on addiction but continue to try to fix her yourself, and keep the addictive chemistry going by priming with fake sweets, you'll set her up to regain it in a year. This is how loved ones keep the sick ones sick - by doing too much for too long, thereby delaying the reality wall for the addict.

I apologize for the bluntness but I thought the Bogie would get it.

Gaelen

09-24-2006, 09:16 AM

Laughing W...I think you're right. ;)

Bogie, at some point Jen *does* have to accept responsibility for the path she's chosen. She will also need to vent and be angry--but it's really easy during the withdrawal part and the angry/venting stage for the people around her to let her attitude with the situation affect their attitudes.

You can make sure she has what she needs...good medical care, the right foods. Jen, however, has to choose them--and the withdrawal portion and the mental leap it will take her to get to accepting responsibility for having had the surgery and now having to change her eating habits with no options is unfortunately all on her, and it WON'T be a cakewalk for those around her while it's happening.

If you think of this as an intervention, you need to have eveyrone else who is in contact with her (kids, family, etc.) on board with the no-sugar-in-the-house, etc. But you can't 'fix' Jen's attitude by yourself, or without her recognizing that things need to change. And I know that you know that...and you need a place to vent, too. ;)

Bogie

09-24-2006, 10:21 AM

Well, right now, we just need to get her to eat/drink... She was NPO for a month and a half, with a lot of pain when she finally started to drink, so she's not eating/drinking... I'm gonna go make her an Atkins smoothie. It'll be bad. Shucks.

laughingW

09-24-2006, 03:17 PM

Right, I know. She can probably hardly even think clearly for herself, much less make choices and send others on errands etc.

Radiant Recovery makes a shake mix that's friendly for addicts. Plus a selection of non-caloric, unsweetened flavors that you can buy.

Lisa V

10-12-2006, 02:24 PM

[quote=gitfiddle;14777]I'm a food addict and I had years of OA, understand the Radiant Recovery,

Hi gitfiddle,

I was just wondering if you (or anyone else) has ever tried doing Radiant Recovery (or at least the 7 steps in Potatoes not Prozac) along with PP?

I'm thinking I may need it, but I'm unsure. I do fit most of DesMaison's profile for an addict but I wanted to check with you guys first. I keep reading about the 'flat' or "dull" feeling she describes after being on any protein-based plan for a while-where you start to dream of carbs & see them everywhere, then usually people fall off of the wagon at that point.

I'm wondering if that is what happens to me when I have those occasional splurges, like a piece of birthday cake or pasta or something. What happens is that it's really hard not to go into a full blown carb binge, at least for a day & sometimes more. I don't know if this is just bad planning, laziness, or if my willpower/seratonin/beta endorphin levels just get overwhelmed like she describes. It's so hard to tell. Also, I've been taking SSRI's for about 7 years now, so I thought that would override any low seratonin issues.

I thought about doing some of the 7 steps, like having a carb right before bed, so I can balance my seratonin for the next day to make it easier to manage my willpower & balance my mood. I just know how much of a junkie I can be & want to be sure I'm not missing any major pieces of the puzzle here, so I can stay on PP my whole life.

laughingW

10-12-2006, 04:03 PM

I do the RR plan within PP guidelines. sheesh, that reads funny...

And I could NOT do PP before I found RR. I kept not "getting" the right mix of carbs, and being ignorant of timing, I would crash and binge. Over and over and over. And I kept thinking it was me. Well it was, but I was missing some information.

It wasn't until I finally learned about the impact, for me, of volatile blood sugar, seratonin, beta-endorphin (and now, dopamine, further research is happening) that I was able to put it all together. It involves more even than all the systems in the PPLP book, if you count brain chemistry.

SSRIs just treat the symptom of a low serotonin level - they set up feeling better by re-using the few molecules you already have. If you can't make enough new serotonin faster than you use it (to raise the level), then you have to be on SSRIs forever. I was a low serotonin person and I couldn't believe the difference it makes actually raising it naturally. Feeling normal after being depressed for years.

Lisa V

10-12-2006, 07:51 PM

[quote=laughingW;17009] I do the RR plan within PP guidelines. And I could NOT do PP before I found RR. I kept not "getting" the right mix of carbs, and being ignorant of timing, I would crash and binge. Over and over and over.

laughingW,

This is EXACTLY what is happening with me! I keep doing everything on PP right, but things fall apart somewhere, even though my dedication to PP is almost millitant! I get so frustrated with the ups/downs controlling me & feel like I am battling against myself-or my brain chemistry. I'm starting to see there is a bigger picture for some of us.

I've started eating within an hour of waking up this past week as a kind of test for myself (instead of waiting until after 10am!) and I notice a big difference already. I LOVE doing it as I get almost a calm, blissful feeling. If I could feel that way most of the time, PP would seem like a breeze.

I think I will need to be another RR/PP'er (yeah, that does sound funny...)

Lisa V

10-12-2006, 07:53 PM

BTW, I know I should've started a new thread, but I saw gitfiddle's comment on RR & started typing away!

gitfiddle

10-13-2006, 01:40 PM

Lisa, you made the right connection with LaughingW. I am not doing both, although I've given it some consideration.

Bogie

10-16-2006, 09:05 PM

Well, the latest update... They did another scope/balloon, and the stricture got really stretched... different doc, and he didn't pussyfoot around... Lot of pain in the recovery room, etc,. but after about a week, she seems to be doing better with less constricting. We'll see...

This was Knob Creek weekend, and she drove down to Kentucky to see me at the campground. She brought a lot of sweet snacks for the kids, who thankfully generally throw them at each other... She's still anemic, and the cold nights (even inside a trailer on a futon with a buncha sleeping bangs piled on) were not good. Next step right now is keeping her eating and drinking... Dr. Doofus left a tiny pouch, so she's got to constantly munch/drink or she'll be malnourished/dehydrated. And since dieting was a hobby for so long, she's trying to stick to mealtimes... Gonna be a big hurdle. I don't think he explained to her about the need to eat a little a lot...