Skipping Meals

[Mitra]

Dr Mike has just written a very interesting blog entry on the benefits of Intermittent Fasting (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/archives/2006/09/fast_way_to_bet.html#comments).

There seem to be lots of benefits - though my husband wasn't convinced that he wanted to be around when I try skipping meals :rolleyes: .

One bit that slightly puzzled me was:

In this study, published in the journal Medical Hypothesis in March of this year, Dr. Laub along with two other physicians (neither of whom I know) underwent their version of and intermittent fast. The three of them have since May 2003 been on a version of the IF in which they consume about 20-50 percent of their estimated daily energy requirements on the fast day and eat whatever they want on the non-fast days.

Since starting their regimen they have

"observed health benefits starting in as little as two weeks, in insulin resistance, asthma, seasonal allergies, infectious diseases of viral, bacterial and fungal origin (viral URI, recurrent bacterial tonsillitis, chronic sinusitis, periodontal disease), autoimmune disorder (rheumatoid arthritis), osteoarthritis, symptoms due to CNS inflammatory lesions (Tourette's, Meniere's) cardiac arrhythmias (PVCs, atrial fibrillation), menopause related hot flashes."

Three people, three doctors, had all those things wrong with them :eek: .

I don't think I'll be taking up the full fledged IF schedule Dr Mike describes, mainly because I don't think it'd go down too well with my husband, but I'll give some thought to what I can do. Maybe one 24 hour fast per week, and a couple of 18 hour ones (effectively just skipping breakfast). I'll try that and see if it makes any noticeable difference. Or maybe looking at just having reduced calories (smaller meals, rather than skipping them altogether) on alternate days, like the quote above would be more doable.

[cmcole]

I haven't read the blog, yet, but will.

My first reaction was that it is odd that I was wondering about fasting just recently - not because I think I would like to do it - but just wondering what Dr. Mike would say about it with regard to PP, as somewhere I thought I read that your food consumption should be divided throughout the day, rather than saving it up for one meal, so I wondered how one would coincide with the other.

[Ottawa]

I started a 5 day fast last night, not from this article but there have been several articles on fasting and a few on breaking stalls using "The Master Cleanse Method". Since my wife was going to do it I thought that I would as well since the last 10 pounds have been a small problem for me for over a year. Unfortunately I do have a dinner engagement Friday evening which I had already committed to in another city, but other than that will for 5 days. It is not an IF but a full fast (except for Friday evening).

I will be short on protein, so may lose a slight bit of muscle mass which I can build up again, and since I still have some residual fat it may not be an issue.

The Master Cleanser is as follows

Master Cleanser (1serving, you need at least 6/day)
2 tbsp lemon or lime juice (1/2 lemon or equivelent in lime)



2 tbsp of pure grade B maple syrup (darker)
1/10 tsp cayenne pepper (red)



10 oz of purified water (some use warm but I have mine chilled)



Combine ingredients and drink.
You many double the Master Cleanser recipe and fill a large thermos bottle and drink all day long.

The Master Cleanser helps purify the liver.

The Master Cleanser helps dissolve and eliminate toxins and congestion that have formed in any part of the body
The Master Cleanser helps cleanse the kidneys and the digestive system
The Master Cleanser helps purify the glands and cells
The Master Cleanser helps eliminate unusable waste and hardened material in the joints and muscles
The Master Cleanser helps build a healthy blood stream
The Master Cleanser helps relieve pressure and irritation in the nerves, arteries and blood vessels Grade B maple syrup contains a large variety of minerals and vitamins. These include: potassium, calcium, magnesium, manganese, iron, copper, phosphorus, sulfur, chlorine and silicon. Vitamin A, B1, B2, B6, C, nicotinic acid and pantothenic acid are also present.

I'll let you know how it goes, and no, other than fasts I always get my minimum protein, and restict carbs. Given that this is almost all carbs (30 ECC per serving), I will only do this twice a year, just as a small "reset" to the system. I'll monitor fasting blood sugar, urine pH, keytones, and weight loss as well as any other interesting items. :jawDrop:

Total: 122 For the day 122 * 6 = 732 or higher if you are hungry and need to drink more.
Fat: 1
Carbs: 31-1 = 30 ECC
Fiber: 1
Protein: 1

Definitely not Protein Power, but possibly a healthy reset and a cleanse at the same time.

[Relief]

Randy--really interested in your result--I have been thinking about doing some kind of cleanse as well and the one you are doing is one of the ones I've been looking at. Let us know how it goes!

[Mitra]

Cm, if you have very unstable blood sugar, you might have problems fasting, but I thought that as long as I tried it at home (where there's food available if necessary) and on a relatively quiet day, I could find out whether that would be a problem.

For myself, generally, I have low BG type symptoms if dinner's late, but not breakfast, and I'm not really sure about lunch, so I'd start by missing breakfast, and see how it goes. I'm getting hungry just thinking about it :lol:.

[peggyjo]

For many years, I ate only after about 6 p.m. each day. This was mainly out of convenience and the fact that I had discovered that I didn't have any hypoglyemic symptoms to deal with during the day if I just didn't eat. If I ate starting with breakfast, I was on the low-blood-sugar roller coaster all day long. If I didn't eat until dinner time, I had good, smooth energy and strength all day. (A little stomach growling here and there, but that wasn't really a problem.)

My weight was not an issue at all during this time. (I was also younger, so I'm sure that was a factor.)

It also didn't seem to matter *what* I ate at dinner as far as the blood sugar fluctuations went. I could eat higher or lower carb and not suffer the roller coaster that night or the next day when I was fasting until dinnertime.

I'm giving serious thought to ditching all the conventional "wisdom" I've been buying into lately about the need for what feels to me like constant eating. Maybe my once-a-day feeding schedule was really on the right track after all.

[Ottawa]

"My weight was not an issue at all during this time. (I was also younger, so I'm sure that was a factor.)

It also didn't seem to matter *what* I ate at dinner as far as the blood sugar fluctuations went. I could eat higher or lower carb and not suffer the roller coaster that night or the next day when I was fasting until dinnertime.

I'm giving serious thought to ditching all the conventional "wisdom" I've been buying into lately about the need for what feels to me like constant eating. Maybe my once-a-day feeding schedule was really on the right track after all."

I think you hit it on the nail with the comment "I was also younger". For many of us here we were pretty rough on our bodies for so long that it has left us with a system that is not optimal, not just through aging, but how we treated it with food choices and less activity.

Relief,
I will keep you posted. There was a big 2 page spread in the Ottawa Citizen on it and when you look up Master Cleanse(r) you read amazing results, not as a long term diet, but as an energy restorer and also as a short term quick fix for 10 - 20 pounds (Byonce, etc.).
It isn't a walk in the park since we (I think most of us) never have to feel hungry and can just reach for some protein or snack whenever we want. I have had a jug of the stuff with me today (Filled 2, 32 ounce bottles) and have had several times stop for a drink as I got hungry but it seems to alleviate those feelings although you do feel the Cayenne.

[Mitra]

I'm interested more from the point of view of improving health than anything, since I'm not trying to lose any more weight. If I can get further improvement in my allergies, and better energy, it could be worth while.

[Ottawa]

The article has some points relating to improved health from fasting as well as the Beyonce story. I've included the Header and health related sections.

Fast: Get moving: Are fast times the right times for fasting?


Gord McLaughlin, Citizen Special


Published: Saturday, September 02, 2006
When it was reported that R&B star Beyonce Knowles had dropped 20 pounds in 10 days on something called The Maple Syrup Diet, the outcome was predictable. The Swiss-made Madal Bal Natural Tree Syrup associated with the diet began flying off the health-food shelves in the U.K. and the U.S. The product consists of Canadian maple syrup and various palm oils, and sells in some places for $70 a litre -- a price tag only a celebrity endorsement could justify.
Beyonce admitted that under a nutritionist's care, she had lived for 10 days on a mixture of lemon juice, maple syrup, water and cayenne pepper. The 24-year-old wanted to temporarily banish her trademark curves in order to portray a '60s soul diva between the ages of 16 and 36 in the upcoming film Dreamgirls.
But in subsequent interviews she warned that such a drastic regimen should be considered "only if you're doing a movie." (Movie stardom evidently being the ultimate justification for anything.) One British nutritionist, quoted in a story that was regurgitated around the globe, cautioned that people need food to live, so keep eating food, or else.
Except that more and more people have come to believe that it's precisely the food we eat that's killing us. For this growing legion of penitents, the first step back toward health is to stop eating.


The idea is literally ancient. Whether the aim has been spiritual growth, physical healing or simply making a strong point, the practice of determinedly foregoing food is as old as the hills. But it also seems to be the very latest thing.
Are fast times the right time for fasting?
"Oh for sure it's growing," says Mano McNabb, who administers 10-day colon-cleansing juice fasts at Nonpareil, an organic farm and natural health retreat in the town of Stirling, 220 km southeast of Ottawa. "It used to be about 90 per cent women, but now so many more men are interested."
Their complaints include stress, arthritis, high blood pressure and impending diabetes, and McNabb says they find significant relief by giving their digestive systems a break.
"Most people arrive here, they're in a mode of starvation, and they don't even realize that," he says. "Their bodies aren't absorbing much of what they're eating, and even what they're eating is depleted of nutrition."
This is the cleanser belief system in a nutshell: most adults on a typical modern diet of processed foods have toxins accumulating in their cells and joints, and along the walls of their digestive tract; this impedes absorption of whatever meager, tortured nutrients we do eat; all disease derives from poor drainage.<---Don't think if I agree with this.

Beyonce's maple syrup regime was essentially a version of the Master Cleanser or Lemonade Diet, which has been around for at least 60 years and replaces all food with a beverage made from freshly-squeezed lemons, a pinch of cayenne and not-quite-so-rare a maple syrup. (It also encourages followers to drink a salt-water brine each morning to help flush out the system.)
The diet's main promoter, the late Stanley Burroughs, published a slim volume in 1975 called The Master Cleanser with Special Needs or Problems. Despite the cumbersome title, the book is still available, and the techniques are often adapted. At Nonpareil, clients use the lemonade mixture as a replacement for morning coffee.
"It gives them a little zap with the cayenne."
I went on the Lemonade Diet and spent eight hunger-free days in placid reflection, meanwhile flushing away 16 pounds. (See Master of the cleanse on page J5.) But weight loss is just a side-effect. Job one is detoxification.

Secondary (Related Article by same reporter)
Master of the cleanse

My plan was simple: drink nothing but fresh juice for four days straight. Some friends had lasted for longer, but four days seemed like long enough to me. Proponents say juice fasts can help fight everything from acne to high blood pressure; I was just happy to try to absorb more nutrients than I usually do and clean my digestive system.


Gord McLaughlin, The Ottawa Citizen


Published: Saturday, September 02, 2006
My friend Damian is an almond-eyed, milk-skinned poet in her early 30s, who on her worst day can still turn heads. But I was startled upon meeting her for the first time in a while, for she had transcended attractive and become radiant. She attributed it to her eight days on the Master Cleanse or Lemonade Diet. Yes, she had also given up alcohol and was following a raw-food regimen, but I didn't quite absorb those details. I wanted eight days to radiance.
It wasn't just vanity. A vague digestive unease had become my norm during years of chaotic work schedules and no-rules eating. But I also hoped to lose the belt of bloat that made me look fatter than I actually was. The online testimonials and forums only egged me on as I mixed up my first drink: two tablespoons of fresh-squeezed juice from organic lemon or lime; a tablespoon or two of pure Grade B maple syrup, which is late-season and therefore richer in taste and nutrients; 1/10 teaspoon of cayenne pepper, and eight ounces of distilled water. You get to have that six to 12 times a day.
Some days I barely managed the six, though I was drinking lots of water and peppermint tea. Perhaps that's why my cleanse wasn't as intense as in some accounts I'd read online, which come complete with disturbing photos of otherworldly excrement. I was glad to be spared this. The lemonade actually tastes pretty good, though you really have to chug if there's too much cayenne. (By some accounts, fresh lemon juice can bond with the enamel of your teeth and leech out calcium, so several guides recommend rinsing with water after drinking the lemonade.)
Any physical hunger pains and headaches disappeared after the first day, and it did indeed feel as though I was saving an awful lot of energy by not dealing with food.
The lemon and cayenne are meant to loosen long-stored toxins from their cellular graves. (The cayenne also generates heat and speeds the metabolism.) Once disturbed, those poisons must be expelled before they make you sick. Thus the nightly cup of natural herbal laxative tea and the dismal morning swigging of a wretched brine. The quart of hot water mixed with two tablespoons of sea salt flushes your entire tract and requires that you have easy bathroom access for up to two hours.
Both during and after the cleanse, I became acutely aware of TV food ads, restaurant signs and other cues I'd normally ignore. Any hunger was psychological and frankly fascinating. I began to contemplate all manner of consumption and selfishness. Colleagues called me serene, lethargic and a bit boring. I didn't really care.
But fast times don't allow for extended periods of reflection. I needed edge and drive for the pile of work that was coming my way. It took days to get back up to speed, and I broke the fast inadvisably quickly (forgot to reread the directions). I've gained back about four of my 16 pounds, as expected. No regrets. I feel lasting benefits in the way I physically deal with and mentally consider food, even if some bad habits are creeping back. Next time I'd try something like the Wild Rose Detox and aim for more permanent changes

[peggyjo]

Doesn't the Master Cleanse involve a slow continual drinking of carbohydrates? I think that's very different from the research Dr. Mike is talking about in today's blog entry. The health benefits (and there were many) were directly related to periods of fasting = no caloric intake.

Yes, I was younger when I ate this way (only after ~6 p.m.) on a regular basis. And I still eat this way occasionally now, just not on a regular basis. It remains the best way for me to be *absolutely* certain that I don't have problems with hypoglycemia. I believe I'm close in age to the Eadeses -- who have been experimenting with various IF schedules quite recently, so I don't believe age is the determining factor. One of the studies he cites in the blog entry was a study of older folks (over 65) on an alternate-day restriction schedule:

...the subjects were eating, on alternate days, either 900 calories or 2300 calories, averaging 1600, and that body weight was maintained. Thus they consumed either 56% or 144% of daily caloric requirement. The subjects were in a residence for old people, and all were in perfect health and over 65. Over three years, there were 6 deaths among 60 study subjects and 13 deaths among 60 ad lib-fed controls, non-significant difference. Study subjects were in hospital 123 days, controls 219, highly significant difference. We believe widespread use of this pattern of eating could impact influenza epidemics and other communicable diseases by improving resistance to infection. In addition to the health effects, this pattern of eating has proven to be a good method of weight control, and we are continuing to study the process in conjunction with the NIH.

I think it's great that there's so much information available to us these days. It allows us all to find what works for us and to tweak a good program like PP to suit our individual needs. I really appreciate Dr. Mike's blog -- he brings the best of the current research to our attention, explains it so anyone can understand, and separates the good stuff from the crapola!

Very intriguing. I'm eager to try this out in combination with low/moderate carb intake.

[laughingW]

Yes this is really interesting.

I too used to not eat all day and then have all my food at night. Unfortunately, with poor food choices, this is how I developed binge eating disorder, I'm sure. But then as an individual I have every genetic and lifestyle risk factor there is, for getting addicted to things.

I now think I could have done it successfully if I still had protein, veg, and omega3s. But as a young adult who was already in trouble biochemically, from how I was raised, when I became responsible for my own eating, I would have had huge starving/blood sugar issues and not known how to fix that.

[peggyjo]

I too used to not eat all day and then have all my food at night. Unfortunately, with poor food choices, this is how I developed binge eating disorder, I'm sure. But then as an individual I have every genetic and lifestyle risk factor there is, for getting addicted to things.

Yes -- addiction is a big part of my history as well. I guess fortunately for me, when I was pretty young I figured out that eating carbs too often or too much or too separately caused my really painful problems. They were disabling enough that I didn't want to do that! (I have actually ended up passed out on the floor from a reactive hypoglycemia episode one time.) So even way back when, before I knew about low-carb dieting, I discovered that I needed to eat more protein/fat, less starch/sugar.

Do you think your bingeing with food was related more to timing/frequency or to what you were eating? Do you now, like most of us, have no trouble with hunger when you stick to lower carbs?

[laughingW]

Do you think your bingeing with food was related more to timing/frequency or to what you were eating? Do you now, like most of us, have no trouble with hunger when you stick to lower carbs?
I'm pretty sure it was both, but first comes malnutrition. I think there's a point at which, if you neglect the protein, micronutrients, and omega3s, AND you are wired that way, it becomes really hard to NOT go for the quick carbs. (loss of impulse control etc)

I moderated the binge list for years at DesMaisons' site and once we did a non-scientific poll of the people on the list. Every single person who answered could remember an early period of malnutrition - from the family being poor, or parents off the rails and no good food, or trauma - that came before the binge disorder.

And yes, now I have stable blood sugar and appropriate hunger. I think Rosedale is right about being an exclusive sugar burner - that's a bad place to get to and if you tried IF straight from there, it would feel not only like "the induction flu" but serious jonesing too.

[peggyjo]

Every single person who answered could remember an early period of malnutrition - from the family being poor, or parents off the rails and no good food, or trauma - that came before the binge disorder.

That's interesting! That wasn't my experience, but my problems with eating have been fairly recent -- mostly since quitting smoking 6 years ago. I believe the severity of my RH symptoms years ago was "protective" for me in a way -- I just *had* to eat plenty of protein when I ate.

And yes, now I have stable blood sugar and appropriate hunger.

It's amazing (and wonderful) the way we can heal! :)

[cmcole]

I think my periods of non-eating came mainly from trying to be frugal (or cheap), rather than anything conscious - although I really liked not having the extra weight that I thought I was carrying. I don't know for sure if I was that fat - some pictures of me growing up were not that bad - but when you have a mother who thinks she is fat, and projects that onto her children - they all end up obsessing over weight.

[SherryJ]

Randy, I too, am curious about your results. :)

I've read/studied Dr. Mike's blog, and all the subsequent entries about the Intermittent Fasting. As of lunch today, I'm am in my first prolonged period with no food. I took measurements this am, as well as fasting blood sugar levels. I'm "way curious" to see what happens. I'll report next Saturday.

Sherry

[Ottawa]

I am leaving Tuesday for my annual canoe trip into Algonquin and wanted a day to return to "normal" so ended my fast with dinner tonight. I have a heavy workout tomorrow with a full pack and I figure it will take a day to get me back to normal. It would have been nice to continue on for a while longer but I will do it again in December.

My results are based on just over 4 days (Wednesday afternoon to Sunday everng) on the above mentioned fast. I used daily fasting blood sugar tests in the morning, as well as monitoring ketones, Ph, and others using Chem-Stiks. My only modification was that I did get 20-30 grams of lean protein in on two days when I was without the "lemode" (Cayenne-maple-lemonade) handy.

I was down 5 lbs. this morning, but much of that may be water although there is a bodily change as well. My remaining 3/4-1" of fat around my waist got much looser and my pants are a little looser as well.
Ketones went up for the first two days but again that was using the sticks so I don’t have actual numbers. Morning blood sugar rose 15% but stayed below the diabetic threshold. Since I was diagnosed as diabetic just before starting PP, I have been able to keep my blood sugar numbers well into the safe range since after a week into the program.
I was surprised at the increase in morning blood sugar since my BMR is well beyond what I ate by almost 200%. There was no day that I was above 1200 calories, usually closer to 1050 so I am unsure of the increase other than the fasting did leave you hungry unless you drank the lemonade and I drank it later than I would have eaten my last meal. As well my joints seem a little more limber but that is not a measured result.

What I would do differently when I do this again is make up more of the "lemonade" to have at work and home since you do get incredibly hungry the first few days until you drink it, and your appetite is definitely appeased when drinking the stuff. Also the Cayenne takes a little getting used to, especially since it does not all mix well in solution and the last gulp is a "hot" swallow.

It felt good to do it and showed that I have at least some self mastery over my appetite. I'd be interested in others results if you try it and do not endorse this as a diet but as an occaisional fast.

[meema]

I found Dr. Mike's blog on Intermittent Fasting fascinating, too, as I guess a lot of people did, judging by how many comments he's gotten on it. I've thought for years that my well-being depended upon eating protein at regular intervals throughout the day, since I have been known to get headaches and even shakiness from going without food. If I had read this information from any other source, I'd be more inclined to dismiss it, or think, well, just "not for me", but Dr. Mike has overturned what I thought I knew about health and eating too many times, so I don't see how I can not try this fasting thing, especially since he specifically mentions hypoglycemic symptoms as something that shoud be helped by fasting.

I'm going to do pretty much the way he suggested: last night I finished eating about 6:15pm, and I'm not going to eat again until this evening. Then I'll eat normally (low-carb, of course) until tomorrow at 6pm, then start fast again, etc.

I'm really interested to hear how other people do on this regimen. Right now it's too early for me to tell much of anything, except that I feel okay so far, just kind of hungry.

[cmcole]

Surprisingly, it wasn't hunger for me, it was

(a) thinking about food, and trying to evaluate how I felt
(b) having a headache to the point I actually took a pill, which I hate to do
(c) having a hubby who won't go for it, and getting rather tempermental (that would be me first, and then him)

So, although it may be that it is healthful for some, for others, it just doesn't fit in their schedule, or lifestyle, currently. If I had read about it earlier in the week, I would have had a few days experiment before he returned from his trip.

I'm sort of afraid that part of my moodiness is due to pre-menopause, especially after last night's blanket throwing in the middle of the night, since I was so hot I couldn't bear them over me, so I'm not sure I want to do any experiments until I figure out the rest of my life, just now.

[Thedabara]

Meema, I'm on the same track as you I guess! Finished eating at about 6 pm last night, and i will eat again tonight...we'll see how it goes! I think i was hungry last night just because I knew i "couldn't" eat....
jenny

[Panama]

I'm on my 5th day (3rd fasting day) of IF. (I'm Nancy LC from the other site). It's going ok. I felt a wee bit cranky today, but I probably would have been otherwise because someone annoyed me. :p

[SherryJ]

Welcome, Nancy! I see you on the other thread! :)

LOL about being the reason for being annoyed! :D

Sherry

[mcsblues]

Welcome Nancy, I'm afraid I gave up on that "other site" some time back! Good to see you here.

I must admit I am far from convinced about IF unless there is a corresponding amount of natural CR (a huge if for me, and I suspect many others) - but I will be intersted when Mike posts some references.

One thing the Eades don't address (AFAIK) - but the same can be said about all low carb writers, is dealing with any sort of emotional or otherwise disordered relationship with food. Aside from the obvious need for warnings to hypoglycemics, I think many others would find they are potentially enhancing any sort of pre-existing binge eating behaviour by heading down this path. For me, I frequently would skip either breakfast or lunch (occasionally both) when low fat dieting - it was then (and still is) and effort of will not to overcompensate when the 'fast breaking' meal came around ... and I don't recall any health benefits of (successfully) eating in that way.

[SherryJ]

Interesting, Malcolm... However, when I break my fasts, I eat no more than a "normally timed" meal. Just til full, not stuffed! :)

Sherry

[laughingW]

One thing the Eades don't address (AFAIK) - but the same can be said about all low carb writers, is dealing with any sort of emotional or otherwise disordered relationship with food. Aside from the obvious need for warnings to hypoglycemics, I think many others would find they are potentially enhancing any sort of pre-existing binge eating behaviour by heading down this path. For me, I frequently would skip either breakfast or lunch (occasionally both) when low fat dieting - it was then (and still is) and effort of will not to overcompensate when the 'fast breaking' meal came around ... and I don't recall any health benefits of (successfully) eating in that way.
I agree Malcolm. There are physiological reasons for it too- binge eaters often have really low serotonin from the bad eating, which reduces impulse control. Couple that with extreme hunger...

When Bart Hoebel was wondering how to induce binge behavior in his rats, Dr. DesMaisons just told him to set up what people with that disorder do. Skip eating all day, binge at night, repeat ad infinitum. And his rats developed binge behavior.

It's a far cry from someone with a healthy brain and metabolism who switches easily from fat burning and so on and can eat appropriate amounts of quality food.
.

[meema]

My first day of fasting went well--no headache, no shakiness, a little bit of spaciness, a little bit cranky. I was definitely hungry, especially after 4pm (probably starting to anticipate eating at 6), and there were periods during the day when time seemed to go by more slowly than usual. I ate just slightly more than usual at dinner, though it took a while to feel full, and I ate normally this morning.

I've worried some, too, about the possible emotional side effects of this regimen. I've never been a true binger, but I have a long history of eating for emotional rather than physical satisfaction, especially when any kind of feeling of deprivation is involved. I do, however, feel quite in control at this point, and actually much more conscious of what I'm putting in my mouth than usual. It will be interesting to see if that feeling is sustainable.

Thedabara, how was your first day? It was very cool to know that someone else was on the same schedule.

[Mitra]

I was away over the weekend, and have been thinking about this. Skipping whole days, or skipping meals to a fixed schedule somehow doesn't quite feel right - and certainly wouldn't get my husband's support. The idea that I just skip meals in secret while he's at work makes the whole thing start to feel too much like an eating disorder for me to be quite comfortable with it. So, I may end up doing what the Eadeses say they're doing now - just skipping the odd meal here and there if I'm very busy or not hungry. In fact, I did that once or twice over the weekend because there was a lot of eating out. Actually, feeling that I have "permission" to miss a meal occasionally feels very freeing. Feeling that I have to eat or not eat to a very fixed schedule isn't the way I want to go.

[Billie]

Mitra exactly! The Eadeses are not advocating this, at least how I read the blog, they are saying that they have tried this to see the results and are asking if anyone else has. I think we are jumping the gun a great deal here. Several people have asked for clarification to Dr. Mike via email or his blog, I am sure we will hear from him soon.

[Panama]

My interest in this has a lot to do with the autoimmune disease I have called ankylosing spondylitis. A lot of the people I talk to with the disease have been using fasting (longer than 24 hours) to get flares to subside. So if I can manage my symptoms by making a small change in my eating, this might be useful info for other people. My sister-in-law's cousin has terrible RA, this might be something she could try.

I "talk" to a CR (calorie restriction) person on the other site and he mentioned that folks had had good luck using CR to control their autoimmune diseases so I figured this would be a good test in a way I could manage. I don't think I could do CR, but IF seems pretty doable. The CR diet seems to reduce a lot of the inflammation.

I have to battle my over eating impulses. I have a long delay from when I eat to feeling complete satiety. So I really just need to slow down the first meal after a fast and I tend to want to tank up on the last meal so I can feel full the next day. But while that sort of works, for awhile, I also end up feeling not so hot after that "tank up" meal. So I think I'll stop trying to do that.

And then on those tank-up meals I was eating too much sugar (peach sorbet) and I think that played havoc with my blood sugar next day. So the sorbet is now gone and I'm going to try to eat normally (low carb paleoish) but a slight bit more, instead of normally and a huge amount more.

I look at all this as an experiment for the community of those afflicted by autoimmune arthritis. It'd be neat to get another tool in the toolbox, especially one that doesn't have horrible side-effects, like most of the drugs they use in these diseases.

[cmcole]

I must admit I am far from convinced about IF unless there is a corresponding amount of natural CR

One thing the Eades don't address (AFAIK) - but the same can be said about all low carb writers, is dealing with any sort of emotional or otherwise disordered relationship with food. Aside from the obvious need for warnings to hypoglycemics, I think many others would find they are potentially enhancing any sort of pre-existing binge eating behaviour by heading down this path. For me, I frequently would skip either breakfast or lunch (occasionally both) when low fat dieting - it was then (and still is) and effort of will not to overcompensate when the 'fast breaking' meal came around ... and I don't recall any health benefits of (successfully) eating in that way.

I think you could be correct on both counts, at least my experience.

I recorded (in fitday) the food I ate at the ONE meal I had that day. It was not less than the food I would have had (calorie-wise) on a normal three-meal day, and I did not load up on carbs or anything. I actually ate the same way I would - just, obviously, more of it. It was as if I couldn't slow down and realize that I was full (and was I? I'm not sure if I was full before I stopped, or not).

Which brings me to your second point . . . emotional eating. So much of our food lifestyle is linked emotionally to things, events, people. I was alone, and anticipating my hubby's return that night, and feeling a little awkward because I had to stay up way past the time I would normally be in bed, just to pick him up from the airport. That evening, thankfully I was REALLY full (or at least to the point that I didn't want any more), or I might have done the emotional eating route.

I'm afraid that it didn't work out for me, as I've stated elsewhere. I really don't need

- headaches
- feeling light headed
- binging

[Mitra]

Aside from the obvious need for warnings to hypoglycemics, I think many others would find they are potentially enhancing any sort of pre-existing binge eating behaviour by heading down this path.

I'm not aware of having had particularly disordered eating in the past (apart from a slight tendency to live on wheat and dairy fat :o ) - I've never habitually skipped meals except when I was strongly focussed on something else, and I haven't binged. Even so, this weekend when I was thinking about IF, and when we had a large lunch on Fri, Sat, Sun and Mon, so that dinner really wasn't necessary, I'd find myself wanting to miss the meal to the extent that I was thinking about ways that I could avoid eating without anybody noticing. I found that I was starting to think that eating was "bad" and not eating was "good." I could very easily see how I could develop that in very unhealthy ways. I ate lightly or not at all for breakfast or dinner over the time away, and I don't think that missing the odd meal did me any harm physically - in fact I came out of the weekend feeling well and not over or underfed, but psychologically the feelings weren't ones I wanted to encourage.

I'm still interested to see the research, but I agree with Malcolm's observation that the emotional aspects of eating need to be taken into consideration, too.

[mcsblues]

I don't think I'd categorise my eating behaviour as disordered - I don't binge in the sense that bulimics do - but I do tend to eat too much (if that is a disorder, it's one I share with probably the majority!) I also have a tendency to eat for emotional reasons such as stress, boredom and depression - again I'm far from Robinson Crusoe there! Low carb has made some of the issues easier to deal with, but it hasn't made them disappear (which leads me to one of my hobby horses - that the Eades really should have at least a chapter devoted these very common problems).

The thing about IF (apart from my finding of no obvious health benefit) is that the fast breaking meal is likely to be seen as a reward (for being "good" and not eating at all for a while) and at least for me, any question as to whether I have a second helping, and/or a high cal desert is likely to be answered with "oh well I didn't have breakfast ..."

Don't get me wrong, I still skip meals if I am too busy or not hungry (the two often go hand in hand) but I can't see that planning to do so would help me, and it is certainly possible it would tend to make some of these issues worse.

[Thedabara]

Hello all! Meema, my first day i gave in after 20 hours. making the kids their lunch did me in! However, I did not go overboard with eating, and am right back at it tonight. maybe this time i'll make it past lunch ( a very late lunch).
as far as binge eating goes....not too much in my house is high carb. I planned my "after fast' meal, and it is even cooked in the fridge (chicken and sauteed mushrooms). Anyway, we'll see how this goes. I was delighted to find that I actually enjoyed drinking hot tea. I figured that not having my coffee with loads of cream would drive me nuts, but I actually made a pot of tea again today...
oops, it is past my bedtime..gotta go!
Jenn

[mcsblues]

as far as binge eating goes....not too much in my house is high carb.
Glad it's working for you, but bingeing/overeating doesn't have to mean high carb food. For instance, yesterday I didn't have breakfast - no plan just very late!! - last night after dinner was over, I did think about it, but the bag of macadamia nuts I had in the car somehow transported themselves inside ... (and inside me as well) ;)

[Mitra]

Dr Mike has added a new blog entry (http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/archives/2006/09/protein_power_v.html) that clarifies their views on Protein Power and Intermittent Fasting.

In brief, the Protein Power approach is what the Drs Eades recommend as far as what food to eat. Intermittent fasting seems to offer some definite benefits too, and as far as our evolutionary past is concerned, it's likely our ancestors had longer gaps and larger meals.

Now, based on the IF research data, MD and I are of the opinion that a Protein Power style diet interspersed with a little fasting is probably the optimal diet. We ourselves follow this diet. We eat one meal a day sometimes, a couple of meals others, and sometimes three squares. If we're not hungry we don't eat. We try to fight off the culturally induced feelings of, Oh, it's lunchtime, so I must we must be hungry: let's eat.

...

We still fully believe in Protein Power. We haven't abandoned it in favor of IF. We have added IF to our own lives from time to time, especially if we go off the Protein Power wagon. But, we also IF using strict Protein Power, too, In short, IF is just an adjunct to the Protein Power diet that makes it work better by making it even more like the Paleolithic diet we cut our collective teeth on.

There's much more detail in his blog, of course, but I thought it was worth copying that bit here to be clear about what they're saying.

[Billie]

Thanks for the update Mitra!

The comments in his blog are well done and gave me what I needed. What people need to understand here is that it is not a gimic or a quick way to lose a few extra pounds, I think Dr. Mike would be horrified if he thought that. We probably should link the whole blog to the articles section so we can send people there for reference.

[meema]

I'm actually really liking this IF thing so far. Yesterday was an eating day, and today I'm fasting until 6pm again. One thing I noticed yesterday was that I had no urge to overeat, I just ate until was full. I think I've never really known before what it felt like to be truly hungry, and now that I do, at least to a point, it's also easier to notice what it feels like to be full. It took much less careful attention, it just felt natural, and that felt very freeing to me. I had no urge to eat high-carb foods, no urge to eat for emotional reasons. I really enjoyed what I ate, too; I paid attention and it tasted good. And I lost a pound.

I think at this point fasting on a schedule works best for me, rather than skipping a meal here and there. Maybe that will change, or I'll decide on different schedule, I don't know.

So, I have to say that, both physically and emotionally, my experience with IF is quite positive so far. But, of course, it's very early days. I'm really interested to find out what happens next. I might even get my husband to try it.

[Vivian]

I'm giving this a try also. My husband is out of town this week, so it's a good time to try it. Like many who commented on Dr. Mike's blog, I pretty much ate this way in high school and college, and never had weight issues then. Of course I was 18 and had a metabolism too! Hubby also ate this way in high school, skipping breakfast and grabbing a quick lunch of a Coke and candy bar (we had an open campus in a very small town and everyone "made the drag" during lunch), then was able to survive football practice. He didn't think he'd be able to do it now, though.

I think what appealed to me was giving "permission" to skip meals. We've heard for so long that that was bad, so I know that sometimes I ate - especially breakfast - just because I "should". I plan to try this for a week, and kind of re-adjust to eating when I'm hungry, and not when the clock says to.

[Panama]

Well, I toned down my eating last night and got the grumblies early today. But at least I don't feel overly full. I can survive this given enough tea and diet soda!

I think this is my 4th day of fasting so far.

I don't binge doing this anymore than I did before. Perhaps even less, since it feels really unpleasant now.

My cat is also skipping 2 meals when I do. He's such a pudgy guy (and I've had him on raw meat for ages!).

[Always]

Hi all: I spent a couple of hours last night reading Dr. Mike's blog on IF. I have to say I was surprised that he was advocating fasting in the first place and that so many people had done some form of it and so many were interested in trying it.

However, after reading and reading and reading his blog post, I get it, but I don't see myself doing it. The only time I fasted for 24 hours was in my early 20's at a retreat and I really did not enjoy it or get anything from it except a headache. I've programmed myself to get my protein, carb, and fat every day based on everything I've learned about PP and it's really contradictory for me to think of not eating, but again....I get it.

All of your comments here in this thread are very interesting also. I also have a tendency to reward myself with food (low carb now, not pre-PP) and can see that IF might lead ME to bad habits that I've managed to conquer.

Kudos to Dr. Mike for his subsequent blog post on the subject of IF. The explanation was clear and concise as it usually is. While I won't be doing IF, I will not worry so much if a breakfast or lunch is inadvertently missed. See ya!

[Billie]

I am with you Mary! Thanks for your words, but gosh most of all we miss seeing you around here!

[SherryJ]

Not to deviate from the interesting dog discussion, ;), but I said I'd report in after a week, and here goes:
1/2" lost from my ABS(!)

INCREASED energy

Feel BETTER than in a long time

20 point DROP in Fasting Blood Sugars


I shall continue to IF, and continue to eat PP in the "food time"... Don't know if it's a "forver thing", but for now, it is...

Sherry

[Vivian]

I agree Sherry. The scale hasn't moved much, not that I'd expect it to, but my pants are looser in the waist, and I feel really good. I've only been IF since Sunday night. I'm not eating today, but when I pick my husband up at the airport tonight, he's gonna have to take me to dinner.

The poor thing had to leave hot humid Houston and spend 4 days in Aspen.

[SherryJ]

Oh, Viv! Having spent last weekend in Vail, I DO indeed feel sorry for him! :D :D :D

Sherry

[Mitra]

Those are excellent results, Sherry. I think I didn't choose the best time for my little experiment with IF last weekend. Although actually, I came out of a weekend when I had several big and not very low carb meals feeling much better than I normally would.

I just wasn't happy with the social/psychological side of it - because the other people around expect you to eat when it's time, and, I don't need to lose weight, so they all disapprove if they think I'm skipping meals (even if I eat enough at the next session to keep my total the same).

[SherryJ]

You know? There were NO comments about whether or not I was eating... I simply said, "I wasn't hungry"... and I wasn't, even around hour 34 or so... amazing!

You know what else was great? SLEEP!!! I've started sleeping... this, from one who's not really slept for TWO DECADES... I SURELY hope that continues... I even took a NAP this afternoon... just "cause"! :D

Sherry

[meema]

The thing that surprises me the most so far about IF--I've done 3 alternate fasting days--is that it seems to be changing my relationship to food in a good way. I do feel hungry when I'm fasting, but when I eat, I eat more slowly, because the food tastes really good, and I'm much more aware of when it's time to stop eating because I know when I'm full. I've been trying to cultivate this level of mindful eating for many years, and never could really get it before. I don't feel deprived when I'm fasting, and I feel very satisfied when I eat. I eat what I want to eat, and what I crave are nutrient and/or calorie-dense foods like meat, butter, vegetables, peanut butter. I'm eating slightly more calories on eating days, but not near as many I would be eating full-time, and I'm finding no desire to waste an eating time with any kind of junk.
I've also noticed slightly more energy during the day, and the scale has dropped 2 pounds. I'm really hoping that sleep thing that you've noticed, Sherry, will kick in. That's something I've struggled with off and on for many, many years, and if IF can cure that, I'm never eating any other way.

[SherryJ]

That's great, meema!

I, too, do NOT think about food... whereas when I was eating "three squares", that's what was MOST on my mind! "What" and "the counts" and...!!! I love it...

Today is a fast day, and I'll break at dinner tonight. I plan to fast in 36 hour lots during the week, and then 24 hour lots during the weekend, so I can have dinner's out, and with the family, etc. Mr. Wonderful made some INCREDIBLE SMELLING french toast... which last night, I thought, "ohhhh, I'll have some..." But, this morning, I'm simply not hungry, and haven't even been tempted.

And, oh my(!), does that break fast meal taste DELISH!!! :D

I hope the sleep continues as well... last night I had another massive headache, and didn't sleep well. MAYBE it was because I took a nap yesterday afternoon... or MAYBE I threw my neck out doing Taebo on Thursday, as I've had a major headache since then. I'll have to keep an eye on that...

Sherry

[Relief]

yesterday was my 3rd alternate fast day. So far pleased. I find it easy and empowering to fast. I have had a similar shift in thinking about food as you meema, more willing to plan andd probably getting in even better nutrition than before. I eat the same number of cals on an eat day as normal--no " doubling " but So far NO WEIGHT LOSS (sigh) I am holding steady however which actually is improvement since I have been creeping up again ( thyroid) and while I'm waiting for test results and then dosage tweaks, at least the IF might prevent any further upward drift. and THAT's good! --I drink a lot on fast days--make a cup of tea w/ splenda or some calorie free lemonade and sit and drink it as if it were a meal. I find that i have nice energy both on fast and eat days. My nearly constant low back pain/stiffness seems less--wouldn't that be an incredible side effect! upshot is that I will continue for a couple more weeks at least and see what other improvments might occur. and if the sleep thing happens for me --I too will eat this way forever!

[SherryJ]

LOL, Deborah! I TRULY hope the "sleep thing" happens for us all! :D

"Easy and empowering" - EXACTLY!!!

Are you guys interested in a weekly thread to keep up with each other's progress??? :)

Sherry

[Belfrybat]

I've also been IFing the past 10 days or so, except for the past two days which were birthday celebration days away from the hermitage. I lost a bit of weight before I left, but I'm sure gained it back while gone. However, like Sherry, my blood sugar dropped by 10 - 15 pts. even thought I had a heavy evening meal on fast days. I don't quite understand that, but if the drop continues, I'll be one happy puppy.

I have had more carbs at the fasting day supper than usual -- 25 - 30 instead of <15, but even so, BS is down the next morning. Then on eat days, I eat as normal with perhaps an extra snack mid-morning.

Yes, I'd like to have a weekly thread in the challenge section for those IFing and PPing together.

[SherryJ]

Isn't that SO COOL about the sugar levels, BC?!?!? I'm STOKED about that! :D

I've had a headache since Thursday, but I'm sure it's coming from Taebo... I actually felt my back "slip" this morning. Dang it! I LOVE that workout, but now may remember WHY I stopped doing it... Sigh...

Sherry

[Relief]

I would be up for an IF thread!

[Nean]

I'm getting back on the PP 'bandwagon'. It is the only plan that makes sense to my gut and when I read Dr. Mike's IF info, it really struck a cord. I would love an IF/PP thread. Please link on this thread so I can find it:o

Thanks!

[meema]

I would love an IF thread.

[Nean]

Well, Saturday was a good PP day after a long string of not-so-good choices.

Sunday, yesterday, I decided WTH and fasted for b'fast & lunch. Did allow myself a coffee with half n half late in the afternoon.

Dinner - salad, prime rib, broccoli, and a small v. dark chocolate.

Observations - not as difficult as expected, no dishes, no time spent on prep/eating/dishes, didn't eat any more than if I'd had B/L, maybe more satisfied with dinner, wasn't any hungrier at 6 than if I'd eaten during the day.

Today my BP is 112/72 & resting pulse 56 [bain of my existence - absolutely no 'pretest' data - but lower than months ago by lots] and I have gotten up, started laundry and have been playing on the computer for a bit - unusual energy even for day 2 of LC.
http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

[SherryJ]

I'm working on an IF thread... discussing with other mod's WHERE to put it, and what's the best format.

Is there something YOU would like to see in it each week, or just "go with the flow"??? :)

Sherry

[Relief]

oops I may have overstepped--just started one under challenges! Sherry, as moderator feel free to move or delete if necesary.--I won't be miffed!
:D ( now that i think on it maybe it should go under "off topic" or somewhere where it will be less likely to confuse newbies) and I'm ALWAYS a go with the flow kinda gal!;):D

[Gaelen]

Not overstepping at all, Relief...
Shadow moved the thread here (http://www.proteinpower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1488) in Community Conversations. Only registered members of the forum will be able to read it/post to it. Enjoy!