endurance

[protein-girl]

Does anyone here participate in endurance sports like triathlon? Once a week I've started riding 60-80kms (about 2-4 hours). I'd appreciate any advice on what others do nutritionally while exercising for long periods. (protein bars? electrolite drinks? fruit? just water??) Most of the advice in the sports world is related to a high carb diet.

I eat 30-40 gms of carb per day. I have a protein shake prior to a big ride and at the moment I drink primarily water, although I have started using a sports drink that I mix that has about 20carbs/litre (its high in chelated magnesium, potasium, calsium and sodium). But I'm usure if I need to or should. I eat almonds and LC fruit when riding.

any thoughts?
P-G

[Gabriel Guzman]

Does anyone here participate in endurance sports like triathlon? Once a week I've started riding 60-80kms (about 2-4 hours). I'd appreciate any advice on what others do nutritionally while exercising for long periods. (protein bars? electrolite drinks? fruit? just water??) Most of the advice in the sports world is related to a high carb diet.

There is an article (Ketogenic diets and physical performance) for download in the thread "Scientific Articles Good to have as Reference (http://72.32.36.211/forum/showthread.php?t=68)" in the "Important Links and Resources" area. The article described and quite debunks one of the myths about carbohydrate control and physical performace. As the myth goes, endurance is compromised and so is performance. The author (Stephen Phinney) describes his studies on professional competitive bicyclists and how their performace is restored and even improved after a period of adaptation to a very low (also called "ketogenic") carbohydrate diet. He makes important points about the need for sodium and potassium as well as protein.


I eat 30-40 gms of carb per day. I have a protein shake prior to a big ride and at the moment I drink primarily water, although I have started using a sports drink that I mix that has about 20carbs/litre (its high in chelated magnesium, potasium, calsium and sodium). But I'm usure if I need to or should. I eat almonds and LC fruit when riding.

Some people like the idea of 'replenishing on the go', which means replenishing glycogen stores during the race. It makes sense when the body is not used to rely on nutritional ketosis and utilization of fat oxidation to produce energy. However, under carbohyrate restriction, particularly when the body has become efficient in burning fat, is not glycogen-derived energy what sustains the race but efficient utilization of fat as fuel. In the end, adaptation seems to be the key, not only to a nutritional approach but also to specific training to develop the necessary tolerance to muscle pain and other discomfort that comes with the type of exertion and its duration. In other words, performance depends on nutrition as well as the actual training for the particular activity.

[hawk]

I really need help in this department. I'm really lifting hard on the days I lift and my cardio is killer. I do intervals to gradually increase my speed and my breathing(asthma) It is helping. I am not having asthma problems . But I find I am dragging myself around exhausted. EVERYONE of the personal trainers at the Y has been jumping down my throat because I don't up my carbs. It is tempting, but I upped my protien to 27 grams 6 times a day. I still get really tired through out the day.. Larry on the other Protien board encouraged me to stay the course. I am looking for some help from someone who really pushes themselves. What should I do.? This is new to me. I am ussually very hyper. Today I woke up with a sinus infection, so I know my immune system is comprimised. I cannot do antibiotics because I get systemic yeast and have had a time of getting over it in the past. I can not add carbs because of this also. I have never felt this tired in my life.

[hawk]

I read your article. I probably need to read it several times to understand it all.
If I am still tired after all this time, is it because I need to eat more fat? take more potassium?

Here is my diet
coffee
6 am two glasses water
workout at least 1 hour
8 am 25-30 grams protien shake added berries
10 am 8 egg white omelet (blood pressure issues in first PP book recommend no yolks)
12 pm chicken breast or fish, 27 gms , salad with colorful lo carb vegetables
3 pm protien shake same as 8 am added berries
6 pm chicken , turkey or fish 27 gms , greens or green beans, or asparagus or such vegetable
9 pm 1 cup cottage cheese or meat (27 grams) or a can of sardines in olive oil
1 gallon water during the day
800 magnesium (dr. recommended)
99 potassium
hawthorne berries 3 caps
co q 10
alpha lipoic acid
vitamin c
flax seed oil or carlsons

[dvdmon]

Protein-Girl, please check your Private Mesages. Thanks!

[Mitra]

Lynn, I wonder if you're over-working. This is taken from PPLP:

After an overly vigorous session of exercise, exercise scientists can record measurable falls in the levels of disease-fighting white blood cells in the blood. The dip lasts for several hours and doesn't fully return to normal for twenty-four to forty-eight hours. What that clearly means is that beating yourself up with heavy exercise day after day without taking a break can weaken your immune defenses - a consequence often seen in runners who almost become addicted to their sport, never taking a day off rain or shine, pounding out mile after mile. It's not unusual for those overtrainers to fall victim to frequent colds and sore throats and nagging injuries.

I also think your menu looks low in fat - that means low in the calories you need to give you energy. Protein is mainly used by the body to build and repair various tissues. Energy to fuel activities from thinking to heart beating to weight lifting, can come from either fat or carbs. (It is possible to get energy from protein, but it's not a very efficient way to do it, and not the best use of the protein).

Is there fat in your shake? I know you're trying to avoid too much red meat, egg yolks and dairy. How about coconut. There's a thing called creamed coconut, that over here comes in a little box. It's high in fat, but has a sort of fudgey texture and a coconutty taste (it's just crushed coconut). I'm happy to eat chunks of it, or you could put it in your shakes. If you warm it it melts to a creamy texture. Avocados would give you some more fat. Some people who have problems with dairy can eat clarified butter - it gives you the fat without the milk proteins. And nuts and nut butters are good, too (remember peanuts aren't a nut, they're a legume, so if you don't do well with legumes, you might be better with almond butter than peanut butter). In my early days on PP I went through jars and jars of almond butter as a snack - on whatever cracker you can eat, or on celery or rolled up in lettuce.

Sorry, I always get carried away when I start talking about food! I'll stop now.

[hawk]

MItra,
Along with asking me to eat a few extra carbs, the word from the personal training class is to eat clean and eat very low fat. I did lower my fat intake.
The AA's are in beef and egg yolks so I cut them out to lower my blood pressure. That was in the first PP book that LArry sent me.
I cannot do both I guess. I have coconut in a can that is lo carb that I can add to my shakes. You are probably right about the fat. I never thought about it. I figured the added protien would do it. It's not fat free.

When I read one of Gabes articles, one section said that the dogs were fed the leaner portions of meat and the people ate the fat portions of meat. I was wondering as I read that why they did it.
Nowhere in any weight lifting publication will I find that eating fat is the thing to do. I guess that's why I appealed to this board for answers. It is really hard to go against the grain of every weight lifter. Are there any known PP weight lifters?
Also , every Sunday I take off. I run sound on those days but mainly that involves sitting behind a board and sliding knobs up and down. I do not excersize at all. I even take a nap later in the day. My immune system problem began with allergies, antibiotics, and systemic yeast. I take acidophilus and nystatin by mouth to combat this.I stay away from allergy causers and carbs(sugar)even fruit.I used to get sinus infections once a month. Now I get them two or three times a year. I cannot do antibiotics or the whole cycle will begin again.

Another question. I'm not sure if I got it right, I had a hard time concentrating with this darn headache and sinus infection while I read,
Should I lower my carbs to almost nothing while I am lifting weights and trying to lower my body fat % in order to keep in ketosis? Does it help? Somewhere I think it said that after two weeks the body adjusted to burning fat and subjects felt better. Am I eating too many carbs so that I am not burning fat and THAT's why I am feeling tired?

Sorry for making this so long. I have had some of these questions for a while. I hope I 'm not driving anyone crazy with all of them. I feel like I am. I just don't know where else to go for answers. In my every day life I feel fine with this WOE. Everytime I get a mindset to stay with the weights, this tiredness happens and I slow down and have a hard time getting going again. I don't want that to happen. I want to reach my goals this time and stay in it for the long haul. I just don't know any body builders who are committed to a high protien diet.People who do not work out hard will not have these same issues.
Protien girl is the first one I have seen. As soon as the weather breaks up here I also ride 2-4 hours with a group of people each Friday and I ride to work. We are working toward an August mini-triathalon. I am also swimming three times a week each afternoon and keeping track of my miles. I probably will not go into it for the speed the first time, I just want to finish.

[Mitra]

MItra,
Along with asking me to eat a few extra carbs, the word from the personal training class is to eat clean and eat very low fat. I did lower my fat intake.
The AA's are in beef and egg yolks so I cut them out to lower my blood pressure. That was in the first PP book that LArry sent me.
I cannot do both I guess. I have coconut in a can that is lo carb that I can add to my shakes. You are probably right about the fat. I never thought about it. I figured the added protien would do it. It's not fat free.

The thing is that you can't cut out both carbs and fat. You need something that will give you energy. I suggested the coconut fat, because something you said made me think you were trying to avoid AA. But you still need to be eating something to fuel all those workouts. You will need extra protein to build and repair the muscles, but the actual fuel comes mainly from either carbs or fat, so you really can't eliminate both. Do you know how many calories you're eating?

Sorry to be so bossy :mad: but I hate the thought of you starving yourself!

On the question of weightlifting and low-carb diets, there was a post Gabe wrote on the old board about the difference between doing a workout to suit the way you eat, or eating to suit the way you work out, but I don't think I saved it :(. I don't know if you can become a competition level weight lifter or body builder on very low carbs, but you can certainly use weight training to build strength and muscle, and improve your healthy with low carbs. Shadow does quite a bit of training with weights, so she might have some answers. Anthony Colpo (http://www.theomnivore.com/) eats low carb, does weight training, and maintains a body fat that's in single figures! The Eades seem to say that if you're training hard you can tolerate more carbs, but not that you need them - but I'm really not very knowledgeable in this area.

[SherryJ]

Hawk, this is from the "Slow Burn" thread in this forum, but you may want to write Frederick and ask him his thoughts...

Hang in, my friend!

Sherry

__________________________________________________ ____________


Hello all!

I'm friends and co-authors of Mike and MaryDan Eades. We wrote The Slow Burn Fitness Revolution.

I want to say "Hello!" and please feel free to email me at FHahn@seriousstrength if you have any questions pertaining to exercise and fitness.

At your leisure, visit the Serious Strength website. You'll find a free EBook there for your exercise pleasure.

Enjoy and feel free to ask me any questions!

Kind regards,
Fred Hahn

[hawk]

Thank you , I will look at that link. I would love it if Gabe would reprint his article if he can find it. I"m not sure what I will do with the weight lifting. I just know that with my motabolism and muscle structure, I need to constantly work at it. It changes back very fast. It does not take long for good changes tho. I have lost three inches in my waist and only 9 pounds since Feb 6. I was just cruising along with no changes. I was doing cardio and light weights. It just did not work for me. I began a real weight lifting program and the changes have been incredible. If I kick box regularly I stay in shape that way too. It's hard to find a good teacher. My body just gets flabby too fast if I don't keep up with it. Someday this summer I will post pictures when I hit my goal. My sister who is a year younger than I (50) is doing the same daily program and we have set some goals for the summer. Being accountable with someone who SEES me on a regular basis is a good thing. She PP's too but her carb count is higher. Her husband is very strict. He is thin but has type II diabetes and controls is with PP.
Mitra don't think of yourself as bossy.I will take anything you can throw at me and love you for it.

[hawk]

Mitra, I spent a few hours reading the omnivores website, I have alot more to read. I e-mailed Anthony and he sent me back a letter 20 minutes later. He advised that I slowly up my fat intake with healthy fats. Fatter cuts of meat. The sardines are too salty for HBPressure so I'm going with fresh salmon and other fatty fish.
I really appreciate your reading my letter and responding so soon. This stuff for me is life saving. I take is seriously.
Thank you again,

[Mitra]

I'm glad it was helpful for you. I sometimes find his style a bit abrasive, but there's a lot of interesting stuff there.

And I'm grateful to you for sharing what you're going through, because I learn a lot from hearing how the different things work for you (or don't). Not to mention being overwhelmed by your determination and enthusiasm!

[gator8me]

Lynn,
I normally go to a gym and lift weights. I would definitly up the fat. I am not sure why you are avoiding dairy? I make my Protein shakes with full fat plain yogurt instead of milk and then i add a splash of cream to get a drinkable consistancy. It works very well for me after my workouts and I stay very energetic. I also snack on either cashews or macadamia nuts. Also I mash up avacadoes and smear them on alot of different meats.
Hope this helps, I know how frustrating it is to feel yucky all the time.
Ally

[hawk]

I guess sometimes I can do cultured dairy , but dairy causes me to get a stuffed up nose and begin clearing my throat constantly for a few hours after I have it. I do use an organic yogurt sometimes and once in a while cottage cheese if I can find it . I have to find organic cottage cheese and with out preservatives as I am allergic to preservatives. I tend do be purist because of my allergies. Alot of store bought Chicken has sodium phosphates pumped into it which causes hives. I look for natural or buy from a local organic farmer when he has them. Fish ends up being my best option because ussually it does not have anything added. Shopping is a real pain in the kiester.
Avacado would work out great . That is a good idea.
Cream is not good. Can't breathe when I have it. Cheese the same. Sometimes I do it anyway but I always pay for it.
I'm allergic to food colors and dyes.Yellow #5 gives me a migraine that dehydrates me and numbs one side of my body and blinds one eye till it wears off. Preservatives,(esspecially in novacaine lidocaine and maracaine)MSG.audiolyzed yeast , wheat,rye,(grain)dairy,grass,most dogs,perfumes cleaners,scented deoderants,most makeup(color),body lotions. Anything scented or sprayed.Mold.dust.Yeast. Scented candles,incense.Sulfites(seafood and preservatives)
When I am at work people check the schedule and do not wear perfume or cologne . They cannot clean around the front desk in the Y when I work till I leave or I have an asthma attack.(It's happened) I have to be careful where I sit in Church because if someone sits near me with perfume on, I have an asthma attack.
So you can see that this WOE was made for me. If I add any carb it is a fruit or green vegetable. Ruth has similar allergies. Eating this way has lessoned my allergies and helped me breathe better.

[Gabriel Guzman]

I find that when talking about exercise, it's important to clearly define what is the main goal.

Ok, let's say that it's for weight loss, which in reality means (or should mean) for fat loss. If we carry excess fat around, then what we want is to make the body use the fat in store. Both, what we eat and how we exercise must work towards that objective, make the body use what it already has in store while preserving whatever muscle we have. Hence a phrase I used to say in the old board: I exercise so my body performs optimally with what I eat, and don't eat so my body performs optimally in the gym.

Knowing that my carbohydrates are restricted, it doesn't make sense to exercise in a way that my performance depends on the muscles using only glucose. What I want is to create the need for the body to use the fat in store, therefore what I need is to exercise so my body will start making that switch (which doens't happen overnight). That also means that for the time being, my fat intake needs to be so I don't fuel my exercise with what comes from the diet but from what's in store. In other words, my protein sources need to be on the leaner side. But that is because I carry extra fat around. But what if I don't really have a lot of extra fat? The way I exercise needs to take that into account and if I'm more interested in endurance, then I need to have enough fat (from the diet) to use as fuel, assuming that my body is already adjusted to that.

I would say that a 'real weight lifting program' is any program that encourages resistance training. The weight load doesn't make a program more real than others, but it does impact the results. Enough resistance, and of course being consistent, is what makes a weight lifting program successful. The amount of weight depends on individual starting point but I would say that anything that is close to 60-70% of the maximum load one can lift perfectly one time, is a good start.

Interestingly enough, there is a way to make weight lifting an aerobic kind of exercise, which is perfect when carbohydrates are restricted.

[gator8me]

Interestingly enough, there is a way to make weight lifting an aerobic kind of exercise, which is perfect when carbohydrates are restricted.

And you just left it there??? lol Ok I"ll bite and big time... HOW? Please enlighten cuz I'm sure I'm not the only inquiring mind that wants to know! lol
Thanks ~ Ally:cool:

[Gabriel Guzman]

And you just left it there??? lol Ok I"ll bite and big time... HOW? Please enlighten cuz I'm sure I'm not the only inquiring mind that wants to know! lol
Thanks ~ Ally:cool:


Oh I'm sorry!! I didn't mean to create suspense as they do in the TV show "24"!!:D

Anyway, remember the section on exercise described in Protein Power (Ed. 1996)? Well, it's very similar to that but with a little twist.

This post is about 'endurance', which means calling upon the aerobic system to produce energy. Working out with weights using loads that are close to our 'one repetition maximum' (that is the maximum load we can lift doing one repetition with perfect form, which is different for different people depending on their starting level) normally calls upon the anaerobic system to produce energy. To switch to an aerobic production of energy we have to try to deplete our glycogen levels so the body has to use something else instead.

Let's say that your maximum load doing a given exercise is 100 lb, then if you workout at 80-90% of that maximum, you'd be generating energy anaerobically and you won't be able to do more than say 3-6 repetitions. If you lower the weight to say 60-70% of the maximum load so you can make between say 12-15 repetitions, you encourge the switch to an aerobic production of energy (which requires the use of more fatty acids than glycogen). Depending on our individual condition, glycogen may or not be depleted quickly. Also, this switch doesn't happen immediately and for somebody not used to exercise that way, the first sessions may just seem to 'suck'! However, we can see when the body is adapting because it gets easier as we keep at it.

So, one way of doing that switch is to combine heavier weights and lighther weights during the same session. For example, I normally to do three different exercises for the same muscle group before changing to another muscle group. For example, for chest workout and I chose three different exercises (bench press, incline bench press and flies). I can normally handle more weight with bench press than with incline or flies, so I use the first exercise with loads close to my maximum (that is ~70-80% of the maximum weight I can lift one time with perfect form).

If my maximum load is 150 lb, then I start with around 100 lb. I know I can't do 12-15 repetitions nor I would dare to try. I aim to do three sets of 3-6 repetitions, and repeat that three times. After that I start feeling that 'muscle exhaustion' described in Protein Power. The next two exercises, incline and flies, are the ones I then make in a way that the aerobic system is called upon. I reduce the weight to 50-70% of my maximum load. For decline bench, my maximum is around 105, so I start with around 50-60 lb and aim to three sets of 12-15 repetitions per set. Also, as a result of the lighter weight, the speed of the movements also increases in comparison to my bench press. The resting time between sets is also important. During the first three sets, using heavier loads, I rest longer and during the other two exercises, when the load is ligher, my resting time is shorter (my longer means around a minute between sets and my shorter time means around 30 secs between sets).

So, basically, I use the heavier weight-slow (and less) repetitions first and then continue with the ligher weight-faster (and more) repetitions. Muscle exhaustion, as one reads it in Protein Power, results either way. You can think of the exercises using lighter weights as weight lifting at a 'cardio' pace if that helps visualizing them. Of course, a really good warm up is a must because I start with the heavier weights first and I don't want to risk an injury.

This way of training would normally let me exercise one muscle group per session, especially if you also include some time for abs, 'cardio', cool-down and stretching. A common break down is like this:


warm up (5 min)
abs (10 min)
resistance (20 min)
cardio (20 min, including cool-down. Hi intensity 'aerobics' are fun here and it really does take around 20 mintues to do)
stretching (5 min)


To go through most muslce groups it would take me about 5 days, which is not bad to create the habit of exercising every day.

Okay, it's about 11:30 PM here and I can only hope I didn't make this too complicated... it really isn't! I'll read it again in the morning to see if I made sense at all!:)

[gator8me]

That does make sense Gabe. It sort of sounds similar to what the dude in Body for Life does. Not exactly but similar. Also, now I understand better why my PT had me doing at least 3 sets of 15 of everything... he told me that it was better to use slightly lighter weight and get 15 to 20 reps in than to lift heavier and only be able to do 6 to 8 reps. All I know is that when I resistance train the way Travis taught me to it FEELS aerobic! lol
Man, I sure am missing the gym. :(
Ally

[hawk]

That is similar to how I lift. I use 75% of what I can lift or less. I am nit trying to bulk up, just challenge my body and build strength. I also am shaping it with some of the muscle groups I work at, Different bench press inclines and declines will affect different places on my chest as I lift. I also work out opposing muscles biceps and triceps etc.

[protein-girl]

HI everyone, I've been away a few days and just read all the responses to my post.

Lynn I'm glad to find someone as keen on endurance sports! I must say I definately eat more fat than you do. I have also found anthony at the ominiore site helpful too ... I follow the PPLP guidelines and eat about 30+ per meal. A typical day for me is

2 eggs 1 egg white
50gms almonds
100 rockmelon
200gms green salad
1 small tomato
200gm chicken
brocolli, cauli
100gms cheese
200gms beef
protein shake if training 3-4times week
75 gms berries

I also take
500gm magnesium
600 fish oil
multi vit

I have not had any major problems with my energy levels but I have had the shakes when riding for too long (in fact since eating LC I have not had a cold or any illness - I reckon its the extra fat and LC). I'm still looking to lose maybe 5-10kgs so sometimes I feel I'm juggling two things at once - weight loss and training - which I think may complicate my nutritional goals but anyway....

I understand that the goal is to get your body used to using fat at the energy source. I think I've experinced that on some level because I have been able to maintain a reasonable intensity training and so on. Everything I read in triathlon mags, training books etc all freak out about LC, so I feel like i"m doing the wrong thing. I've read that carbs following intense workout actually decrease cortisol levels -so should I think about the timing of the carbs I eat? for example eat my carbs during and after the race or long workout, maybe even increasing my carb intake on these days by 15-20% to account for the increase in energy expenditure?

Does anyone drink sports drinks or if the body makes the switch to fat burning are they not necessary?

PG

[Triskeliongirl]

........The article described and quite debunks one of the myths about carbohydrate control and physical performace. As the myth goes, endurance is compromised and so is performance. The author (Stephen Phinney) describes his studies on professional competitive bicyclists and how their performace is restored and even improved after a period of adaptation to a very low (also called "ketogenic") carbohydrate diet. ......

I followed this thread with great interest. I am having great luck using a low carb diet to control impaired glucose tolerance, but have been struggling with what to eat on long, high intensity bicycle club rides (3-4 hours at 70-85% max HR). I read this paper, but my concern is that even he concludes that you do need glycogen to srpint, and when one is riding up a hill at high intensity, trying to say with a group, one is working anerobically and I think requires muscle glycogen. Does anyone know that if one is consuming ~30-40 g of CHO per day, and ~100 g of protein, whether enough dietary protein can be converted to glucose via gluconeogensis and to fill muscle glycogen stores? I've been trying to replenish muscle glycogen by adding ~40g CHO to my pre-ride dinner and breakfast, but then sometimes I'll go hypolgycemic on a bike ride, my endo thinks from the rapid fall in blood sugar when I start a ride with too high a blood sugar and I worry I am exposing myself to high blood sugars for too long.

[maxlharris]

You might take a look at menshealth.com's current Transformation using the TNT diet. There are 5 plans and a couple of them deal with replenishing glycogen stores while not overstimulating insulin. lemme see if I can find a link to the appropriate plans.
http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=weight.loss&category=transform.2007&conitem=5d7d1d8690fd2110VgnVCM20000012281eac____
That's the start of the article. You can figure which one fits your goals best, and adjust your LC diet accordingly.

FWIW: their replenish meals tend to be carb+protein, and lowish fat.

[Triskeliongirl]

Thanks, that is helpful. The diets described are similar to the targeted ketogenic diet that I have been following. But I am still curious if anyone knows how full one can keep glycogen stores just by gluconeogenesis of dietary protein?