More Glucose Experiment & Protein Needs

[Paleowoman]

As an experiment to see what fruit does to my blood sugar, last night for dessert I ate 1/2 large plum, bowl of cherries and 1.3 cup raisins. Took a blood glucose reading this AM (about 7.5 hours later -- not the full 8-10 recommended because of my AM schedule) -- YIKES! My glucose was a whopping 98!!!!:eek: THAT DID IT FOR ME -- NO MORE FRUIT IF I CAN'T LIMIT IT TO 1 small serving a day.

I was looking at Ron Rosedale's book (used to work with the Eades) and I notice his protein requirements are much lower. Eades have 27 per meal (or approx. 81) per day as a minimum for a small person -- but when I calculate with Rosedale's method -- I drop to only 60 per day!!! Seems way too low -- thoughts????

[Mitra]

The protein requirements in PPLP are an approximation, to avoid having to do the calculations in PP, which some people found confusing. The more accurate PP daily protein requirement depends on your lean body mass and activity level. If you know your lean body mass, then you need to multiply it by:
0.5 if you are totally sedentary - no exercise at all;
0.6 if you do 20-30 mins exercise 2 or 3 times per week;
0.7 if you do at least 30 mins 3 to 5 times per week;
0.8 if you do vigorous activity for at least an hour 5 or more times per week;
0.9 if you exercise at competitive athlete level.


I'm on the 20/27g per meal border in PPLP. Using the PP calculation, I get just over 60, so there's not too much difference, but the PPLP numbers have to make assumptions about fat % and activity levels, and they tend to err on the higher side to make sure most people using the estimates will get enough protein.

[Paleowoman]

Thanks Mitra -- How does one calculate "lean body mass???" and do you find that too much protein stalls you??

[Mitra]

What's usually calculated is body fat %. Some scales (Tanita is the best known brand) will measure it, a gym or doctor can do caliper measurements of skin-fold thickness to get a figure, or there are various ways to calculate it from body measurements. A couple of on-line ones are here (http://www.he.net/~zone/prothd2.html) (this one gives me a BF of 22%) and there are three different ones for women, two for men here (http://www.eskimo.com/~cdickens/FatCalculators.html). (No. 1: 15.9%; No. 2: 21.8%; No 3: 23.1% - method one is clearly way out for my body shape!). My Tanita scales say 21.9%, and so does the PP calculation.

Once you have a body fat figure, you're ready to go. Weight times body fat%, divided by 100 gives you the number of pounds of fat. Subtract that figure from your weight, and that's your lean body mass.


As an example:
My weight is 112 times 22/100 = 24.6 which I'll round to 25 lbs fat

112 - 25 = 87 lb LBM

I do about half an hour of exercise (sometimes a bit under, rarely over) at least five times a week, so I'll use the 0.7 multiplier to get a protein requirement of 60.9 g per day. I'm 5' 2" with a smallish frame, so most people will need more protein than that.

In six months of journalling I averaged just under 90g protein per day (individual days between 60 and 110g) and 60g carb. I lost 7 lb during that time, though I wasn't really trying to - just trying to avoid going up. So, I haven't found that protein stalls me at any quantity I'd be at all likely to eat.

[laughingW]

I feel marvelous on the minimum protein. As Mitra said, Eades minimum and Rosedale work out the same for me.

I lose more easily and with no hunger either, as long as I eat fat when I get hungry. (mostly nuts)

I would never be able to eat that much fruit on its own without feeling awful, getting puffy (insulin surge), and having cravings for days.

I can eat about half a serving of fruit with a meal and have it be okay. But I don't because, what do you do with the other half, LOL. Besides I like my veggies because of how they make me feel.

[Paleowoman]

I would never be able to eat that much fruit on its own without feeling awful, getting puffy (insulin surge), and having cravings for days.

.

THAT'S EXACTLY ME THIS AM -- PUFFY :angry: -- AND UP ON SCALE A WHOPPING 3 pounds:eek: -- THAT'S A LOT ON A SHORT GAL LIKE ME -- 5'2.5"

THAT'S IT -- FRUIT IS JUST GOING TO BE OFF MY MENUS IF I CAN'T CONTROL IT. I NOTICE ROSEDALE ONLY ALLOWS AVOCADO AND OLIVES AS THE ONLY FRUIT FOR FIRST 3 WEEKS.

[laughingW]

Paleowoman, we might be the same height! I haven't measured in a while but I used to be that!

I didn't do Rosedale level one. I don't like the feeling of shocky, abrupt transitions like that - going from what you were doing to bam, something else. The body is not like a machine that can just turn left on a dime - there are enzymes and things where some need to fade away and others need to grow. So I transitioned down on the protein, up on the fat, and different on the carbs.

He also doesn't talk about higher-fiber root veggies - rutabaga, turnip, jicama. I used those and still do as part of my carbs. Protein and leafy greens only, I just don't like the feel of it. I do like a little veggie substance. Maybe because I hate the taste of veggies so much it's better to get variety.

[Belfrybat]

THAT'S EXACTLY ME THIS AM -- PUFFY :angry: -- AND UP ON SCALE A WHOPPING 3 pounds:eek: -- THAT'S A LOT ON A SHORT GAL LIKE ME -- 5'2.5"

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Look at the amount and kind of fruit you ate. 1.3 cups of raisins? That's probably equivilent to a pound or more of grapes and is very high sugar. You could have eaten, for example, two plums and the cherries and taken in much less sugar. Even better, why not eat berries? I find I can eat two servings of most fresh fruits besides bananas (that's 1 cup) and have no increase in blood sugar 4 hours later. If I ate 1 cup of raisins, I don't even want to contemplate the rise. Give fruit a chance, but use fresh, not dried which is concentrated sugar.

[SherryJ]

Two things, paleowoman... actually, three! :)

OHHHHH, if the height differential was a factor! :D ;) :D It's not... sigh... **said from my upper height of 5' even, on a good hair day!** :p

Secondly, "98" for a blood sugar reading is right in the middle of... middle, isn't it?

And, last, IF I remember correctly, a QUARTER cup of raisins has an ECC of 19...??? If so, that's a whole lotta carbs on the raisins alone, and then ONE cherry has ONE ecc...

Welcome, by the way! :)
Sherry

[cmcole]

Cherry, Sour, Red - 1 cup = 52 cal; 1.03 pro; .31 fat; 12.55 carbs; 1.6 fibre, for ECC of 10.95

Cherry, Sweet, Red - 1 cup = 74 cal; 1.24 pro; .23 fat; 18.73 carbs; 2.5 fibre, for ECC of 16.23

1 plum (66 g) = 30 cal; .46 pro; .18 fat; 7.54 carb; 0.9 fibre for ECC of 6.64

1/3 cup raisins = 130.5 cal; 0.2 fat; 1.4 g pro; 34.42 carbs; 1.74 fibre, for ECC of 32.68

I'd feel puffy, too.

[Reverie]

Those of us with diabetes in the Bernie camp (Dr. Richard K. Bernstein), have mostly given up fruit. You can get most of the same benefits from vegetables. Bell peppers have more vitamin C than oranges. Once in a great while and when the fruit is in season, I will have a small amount. Always have some fat with the fruit - berries or half a peach with heavy cream is mahvelous! Dr. Atkins also said fruit is overrated.

If you want to avoid experimenting on yourself, just read Dr. B's book Diabetes Solution! Although each person is a little different, you can see what he finds typically causes blood sugar to spike. Grains, sugar and starches are on the no-no list.

[LisaS]

this strikes me as a not too valid test - unless the only way you EVER eat fruit is on a similar single setting binge -

when I read this, it sounded a little like me saying if I have 2 beers, 4 shots of tequila and a large glass of wine in a single evening, I wake up with a hangover the next day - therefore -- no more alcohol for me - when a small glass of wine or 1/2 beer might be perfectly reasonable.

why such an extreme test? Why not test a normal serving of fruit as the only carb source in a normal meal or snack (ie with protein and fat) and see what the effects are?

[SherryJ]

when I read this, it sounded a little like me saying if I have 2 beers, 4 shots of tequila and a large glass of wine in a single evening
BINGO, Lisa! THAT'S what my brain wasn't coming up with, but sounds like you're RIGHT on the money!!!

Sherry

[Paleowoman]

I just seem to have a problem with fruit -- I don't set out to eat the huge quantities, but a little leads to more, more more! Also, I thought that if one wasn't prediabetic, one should be able to eat tons of sugar ie a big bag of jelly beans etc at night and then test normal sugars in the morning. I had the idea my fasting glucose was sky high because Rosedale says the "norms" are set too high and he considers 85 to 110 "High" -- so I panicked. Time for me to stop being a fruit-piggy! Summer fruit is so darn tempting...but I think Gaelen and others are right -- the binging is NOT normal and I suspect I'm looking for quick feel-good fixes to get my mind off my father's cancer etc. Thank you all so much for your thoughts and insights -- so helpful!