soy safety

[jeff]

I am a decade-long vegetarian and a recent conscript to Protein Power. Even before getting on the PP bandwagon I had some reservations about soy and now that I have substantially increased my protein intake, including soy, my concerns have risen. I wonder if other PP vegetarians have similar concerns and what they are doing about it? I eat lots of eggs and chese to augment my protein but I still wish there were other high protein alternatives available (seitan is wheat based, not so good, Quorn is fungal based and according to some has serious processing risks -like soy, so the field isn't full of choice) If the growing controversy about soy is new to anyone I have links to some pretty negative material from researchers and scientists in nutrition.

[Mitra]

Welcome, Jeff. I was a vegetarian for about 10 years or so, too, but I never ate soy, mainly as a matter of taste, because at that time I hadn't read any of the negative material, didn't much like eggs, and wasn't prepared to live on nothing but cheese, so I started eating fish, then meat. In our early PP days, my husband & I ate quite a bit of quorn, but I just one day couldn't face another serving of it - and that lasted for a couple of years, by which time I was eating meat anyway, so there wasn't any point.

Regarding the safety concerns with soy, if you're a vegetarian for ethical reasons (ie you're prepared to compromise your health to avoid hurting animals) then I suppose it's a question of deciding whether the extra protein you'd get from soy would benefit or damage your health. Personally, I wouldn't think it would be too bad if you used it in moderation as part of the mix, rather than as your only source. You're still stuck with the way it tastes, though :(.

There are one or two people here who don't eat much animal food, but I don't think we have any rigorous vegetarians here at the moment.

I think you've covered most of the high protein options. Don't forget that nuts also have some protein. And if you're at maintenance, you could use pulses too - they're too high in carbs to contribute much protein at intervention levels.

If you don't mind using protein powders, they'd give you a vegetable source of complete protein.

[jeff]

Was it taste or convenience or not wanting to be weird that made you return to the hunter fold? All three have a wearing effect on me at times.
I believe in a non-harming lifestyle and think more would join the cause if there were nutritionally sound non-meat alternatives out there. If you could have the taste without the blood wouldn't it be easier to switch back?

[LisaS]

I'm not Mitra, but thought I'd just stop in.

I was vegan for years because I believed McDougal on the associated health benefits. I no longer believe that he was correct, nor do I believe Fuhrman has it right, nor Collins, nor Ornish.
I'm no longer vegan.

That said, I know many many people who are periodic no-oil vegans for religious reasons (Orthodox Christians) and so I follow the vegan and vegetarian conversations quite closely esp. as it regards Protein Power and adequate protein while controlling/limiting carbs. In general, the people I know like to avoid "fake foods", meat analogues, soy cheese and other processed foods - and eat real food when possible, the exception being protein powders like hemp, pea, soy, rice & general veg-protein.

[Mitra]

Was it taste or convenience or not wanting to be weird that made you return to the hunter fold?

It wasn't about not wanting to be weird - many of the people I know are vegetarians, so was my husband, and we'd done it for enough years that it felt perfectly normal. But our diet was very heavy on the pasta. It was really about taste - as I said, I don't like soy or eggs, and rapidly reached the point where I just couldn't face quorn. And I don't eat protein powders - they just don't seem like real food to me. It wasn't that I particularly craved the taste of meat (though I do enjoy it) but that I wanted more variety in my diet than I could have had getting all my protein from nuts and cheese.

The ethical issues are not totally straightforward. I don't necessarily think that killing a sheep that's spent its life wandering in relative freedom around the hills is worse than keeping cattle or chickens in the confinement that's often imposed in the egg and dairy industries. As far as I can reasonably do, I try to buy from sources that keep free-range animals, and I try to waste as little as possible.

While I haven't reached the stage where I'd be happy to kill my own dinner, I do try to acknowledge where my food comes from - whereas many of my lifelong carnivore friends get very unhappy if there's any reminder that the lamb they're eating was once a sheep.

I was a vegetarian because I didn't want to kill animals for my food if it wasn't necessary. Since I started eating meat again, my health is so much better that I wonder if it's true that eating animals isn't necessary for me. At the very least, it makes eating healthily much easier, and gives me a greater variety. At the moment I'm accepting my place in nature as an omnivore. I'm quite happy with the way I'm eating now, though I know my husband would like to be more veggie, so once he's finished his weight loss we may end up with some sort of compromise. He sees how much better this diet suits me, so is reluctant for me to give up meat even though he'd like to for himself. So I don't know quite where we'll end up. His breakfasts are always veggie, and I try to keep most of his lunches free of meat (and fish - we count that as meat).

[laughingW]

I believe in a non-harming lifestyle and think more would join the cause
Have you seen Mike Mahler's article on a higher-protein, higher-fat approach for vegans? He's a strength coach who poo-poos the very-low-protein approach of people like McDougall (very amusing snide remarks about getting protein from cucumbers). And he is an ethical vegan.

It is not true that the only way to have a non-harming lifestyle is vegan, but maybe you didn't mean to imply that by "the cause."

[Gaelen]

I personally don't and never have counted fish as 'meat'--Catholics have always considered fish as abstinence from meat, and that's how I grew up, so I've never considered fish = meat. I've also always included the basic cheap natural proteins--dairy products and eggs--in my protein sources along with nuts, seeds, their butters, beans and lentils. All but the beans (except for soybeans, as edamame, tempeh, soy flour and tofu) have stayed in my diet as a low-carber; other beans I continue to eat in PP-compliant portions and as flours (gram flour, besan or chickpea flour.) Oh, and nutritional yeast, which has small amounts of protien, although it's more important as a vitamin and mineral provider. YMMV. ;)

That said, I was never vegetarian for ethical reasons. I started eating vegetarian because I couldn't afford meat, decided I liked what I was eating, and continued to eat that way for nearly 20 years before incorporating small amounts of meat into my diet (only because I got better paying jobs. )

There really wasn't much in the way of meat analogues when I started learning vegetarian recipes in the mid-70s, except homemade things like seitan, or traditionally fermented things like tempeh. Oh, and TVP--we had that, but it was usually mixed with ground meat to extend it. In the mid-70s, eating vegetarian also did NOT equal eating low fat. Moosewood recipes, Mollie Katzen, Anna Thomas, Louise Haglar--they were all about using full fats, butter, some coconut and olive oils, even margarine (it was the 70s--margarine was a wonder food!)

I eat soy in moderation, and except for my soy protein isolate protein powder (which I alternate with whey protein), I try to stick to naturally fermented variants like tempeh and tofu, or unprocessed beans like edamame or straight soybeans to which whey, konbu or vinegar are added. I also use roasted soy flour as needed, although I prefer vital wheat gluten, oat flour, whole wheat flour and garbanzo bean (besan) flour.

[Mitra]

Over here, if you were avoiding meat on cost grounds, you certainly wouldn't eat fish instead, because it's much more expensive than meat. Last week we had fish (halibut) for one meal, and the steaks (about 6oz each) for the two of us for one meal cost approximately the same as the meat for the entire week.

My vegetarian years weren't anything like low fat, either, but they were low protein. I ate some cheese, and lots of butter and olive oil. Our fat & oil consumption went down a lot when we started PP because there was nothing to spread the butter on or to soak up the oil.

[Belfrybat]

Jeff, if you are eating eggs and cheese, why can't you have whey protein instead of soy? It's made from milk. Also, if you like to cook, try Carbalose flour or Carbquick as they have a fair amount of protein (available through www.Netrition.com (http://www.Netrition.com)). There's also wheat protein isolate which can be added to boost protein even further and works great in baked goods.

[jeff]

Partly because of the protein issue I do eat eggs, chese, whey and all forms of soy-- I actually like the veggie burgers and sausage! I do not eat meat for ethical reasons and I have found that lower carbs and higher protein has leaned me up a bit. But, I was won over to PP by the insulin/ cholesterol benefits.
I will be brainstorming with die-hard vegetarians and I plan to raise the soy safety question in earnest. I think more people would be vegetarians if soy (or ?) earned the highest reviews from nutritionists. Lacking that endorsement, vegetarianism may remain a fringe group and, according to some references on the L. Cordain website, a breeding ground for extremists and radicals! Anyone still passing on the meat out there? I have to admit that reading the arguments and literature presented by the Doctors Eades has caused me some dietary soul searching but I remain quite content with my meatless diet.

[lowcarbgirl]

Jeff,

I can relate to the ethical reason for vegetarianism. I just recently went vegetarian for the same thing. The cousin currently helping me out is a vegetarian for ethical reasons and will not deal with meat. She has been great at keeping me with PP guidelines however, and has converted to PP as a vegetarian herself.

While she has been here, she has shown me many pics of slaughter houses and how animals (for human consumption) are kept. Being the animal lover that I am it broke my heart.

I'm at a point where I just never want to eat meat again.

It makes it a challenge at times, but it is working. I've been managing to consume 100 or so grams of protein a day and come in between 30 - 40 ECC a day.

hugs,
Willow

[Gaelen]

Over here, if you were avoiding meat on cost grounds, you certainly wouldn't eat fish instead, because it's much more expensive than meat.

Mitra, one of the cookbook genres of that time was "365 ways with (fill in the blank)" and I've actually got one called "365 things to do with tuna" -- that would be the canned stuff, which in the 60s and 70s was often 5 cans for a dollar. :) That doesn't even count how cheap canned salmon (croquettes, and my personal favorite--salmon loaf with creamed egg sauce) and canned mackerel were (more croquettes, casseroles and gratins.) The things those little recipe booklets would have you do with canned seafood and their starch of choice ... trust me, very little of the fish we ate as kids and I used in my cooking was fresh. Although in the spring around here, the bullhead run did mean fried bullhead as often as you liked, and Friday's traditional fish and chips was usually frozen haddock in those days, another very inexpensive fish at the time and still not particularly pricey even today. And there was always bacalau--salt cod--at least once a week during lent.

Our fat & oil consumption went down a lot when we started PP because there was nothing to spread the butter on or to soak up the oil.

Greens, woman--greens! And onions. And for a true vegetarian 'sauce sponge,' the ever popular portobello (or any other variety of mushroom, for that matter...) ;)

[Gaelen]

Partly because of the protein issue I do eat eggs, chese, whey and all forms of soy-- I actually like the veggie burgers and sausage! I do not eat meat for ethical reasons and I have found that lower carbs and higher protein has leaned me up a bit. But, I was won over to PP by the insulin/ cholesterol benefits.
I will be brainstorming with die-hard vegetarians and I plan to raise the soy safety question in earnest. I think more people would be vegetarians if soy (or ?) earned the highest reviews from nutritionists.

Jeff, I'm not exactly sure what qualifies someone as a 'die-hard vegetarian.' Is it someone who, when given other options, still makes vegetarian menu choices routinely? Is it someone who crusades for PETA? Is it somebody in between who simply enjoys the awesome tastes and variety of well-prepared vegetarian dishes? I fit two of those criteria (guess which two?) Here's a hint...I am definitely someone who PETA would run out of town on a rail. Then again, PETA is a group I'd solidly consider among the fringe groups and extremists. I've been a radical; I can spot others of the species a mile away. ;)

In my experience, people choose to eat more or less meat, or to eliminate it completely, based on a lot of things. Reasons as diverse as financial, food sensitivity, eco-consciousness, religious, ethical, a perception of better health, meal variety, or culinary investigation may all play some part in the decision--and for what it's worth, in my book that's personal, rather than political. Whether soybeans and the foods that can be produced from them are healthy for people to use as a protein source, or whether nutritionists recommend soy foods, has (in my experience) very little to do with choosing or not choosing to eat less or no meat. Heck, in the 70s, soybeans were only included by most vegetarian cooks as boosters, additives and extenders. I can count on one hand the number of cookbooks that focused diet nearly exclusively on soy foods..."The Farm Vegetarian Cookbook" and "The Book of Tofu" were the only two in that category that I owned for many years, although I own and regularly use more than two dozen vegetarian cookbooks. "Diet for a Small Planet" and "Recipes for a Small Planet" only used soybeans as complementary extenders for other vegetable proteins--an approach that's been shown to have been based on less-than-correct assumptions about digestion and food interactions. "Laurel's Kitchen," "Vegetarian Epicure" and most of Mollie Katzen's work focused on grains, other beans, dairy, eggs, and vegetables. And those works were among the pivotal works in developing vegetarian cuisine in this country.

As for the "soy safety" question, I promise you that for every reference that 'proves' soy is unsafe, there is another that 'proves' it's good for you. It's rock-paper-scissors argument until someone freaks and brings in a flame war to end it all. Many mainstream nutritionists do recommend soy foods, have for about 25 years now, and the whole '25g of soy protein a day' campaign is hardly dead in the water--in fact, it's got more life in it as a dietary choice than low carb at the moment. Soy also has some very vocal detractors but whether those detractors are responsible for more heat than light on the subject is another post...

Due to the inconclusiveness of the research, how much soy to consume is really a matter of personal choice. I choose to consume soy, as any other part of my diet, in moderation. I stick to between 25 and 50g of soy per day, and that's been about how much I've consumed regularly since I burned my first soy burger (the kind you make from scratch) in the dining hall kitchen where I made vegetarian entrees in 1974. Some vegans I know make it a much larger focus of their diets, while other people avoid soy like the plague. I could easily disprove every reason for both consuming soy and NOT consuming soy; and nearly everyone with an opinion on the subject believes they can easily disprove any research that soy is a viable protein source. But lacking more conclusive research, it's really a 'jury is still out' situation and people have to make up their own minds.

Like it or hate it, I think most reasonable people can agree that soy isn't a miracle food. I'm not even sure that much besides the egg and the peanut--two other foods to which many people are also allergic--truly qualifies as a miracle food. ;)

Lacking that endorsement, vegetarianism may remain a fringe group and, according to some references on the L. Cordain website, a breeding ground for extremists and radicals! Anyone still passing on the meat out there? I have to admit that reading the arguments and literature presented by the Doctors Eades has caused me some dietary soul searching but I remain quite content with my meatless diet.

Jeff, there are extremists and radicals both among vegetarians and among people who eat meat. Individuals choosing one menu or the other isn't going to change any extremist's position one iota--that inability to be swayed to another viewpoint is what makes them an extremist.

That said, the whole point of this particular section of the PP forum is to be a resource for people who are 'quite content with (their) meatless diet,' and to provide some options for others who may be exploring, or have a vegetarian family member or dinner guest, and who want/need some meatless meal ideas that are still on plan. Protein Power is very do-able as a vegetarian, whether you consider fish meatless (as I do) or whether you are a vegan with multiple chemical sensitivities (as Cyndi Norwitz has been while following PP for about the last eight years) or something in between. We're all about exploring HOW to incorporate PP guidelines into a meatless diet--but this place isn't about debating the ethics or appropriateness of vegetarianism in any of its many forms. That debate is for the extremists and the fringes in other places. This place accepts that PP is a multi-dimensional plan that makes controlling carbs and getting adequate protein possible for nearly every dietary preference. Having accepted that premise, we can focus on ways to control carb intake AND get adequate protein from vegetarian sources when that's the choice someone makes, rather than waste energy debating or promoting one low carb menu preference as 'superior' to another. There's room for all of the varieties of carb-controlled menu choices, and no one has to choose one or the other to benefit from PP.

Welcome in. ;)

[Mitra]

Greens, woman--greens! And onions. And for a true vegetarian 'sauce sponge,' the ever popular portobello (or any other variety of mushroom, for that matter...) ;)

My husband protests if I feed him spinach every day :lol: I did try! And I do cook mushrooms, onions etc in lots of butter. The only veg I don't feed with as much fat as it can take is aubergine. That goes beyond even my fat-thirst ;) . I get around 60% of my calories from fat (about 100g per day), but the olive oil and butter consumption is still less than it used to be - though it's been higher through the summer (especially the oil), probably because we've had lower fat protein sources.

[lovebabe]

Just eat beans and take Vitamin B-12.

Actually there are good points and bad points about soy. I think its funny that former vegetarians blame any health problems they have on soy. For instance I knew a woman who blamed soy for having uterine polyps. Well I had them too and that was before I was a vegetarian and I wasn't eating ANY soy. It is not uncommon for pre-menopausal women to get uterine polyps or fibroids ( I had both and as I said wasn't eating any soy). Well you could say there is a lot of soy in processed food, which is true, but women have had fibroids and polyps long before soy was used in processed foods. As far as men go, studies have shown that soy actually helps PREVENT prostate cancer. I would say the benefits and harm of having soy in your diet are probably about equal from what I have read.

[Mayflowers]

To help clear this up, The rate of Breast cancer in Asian women who eat 6 servings or more of soy a day is WAY less than Americans. Almost non existant.

And to clear up another mis understanding, Vegetarians are proven to live longer than meat eaters. The very fact that meat eaters are eating way more environmental toxins and poisons as concentrated in animal fat and flesh would show that vegetarians are healthier. I don't mean people who live on pasta either as an example of a vegetarian. If you want to be vegetarian you have to me more careful of your diet.


VEGETARIANS LIVE LONGER, HEALTHIER - Here's one reference.

Forwarded message from Fidyl <fidyl@yahoo.com>

[ Subject: SDA & Life Expectancy
[ From: Fidyl <fidyl@yahoo.com>
[ Date: Fri, 20 May 2005

SDA & Life Expectancy

Summary of life-expectancies of Californians:

...Vegetarian SDA female = 85.7 years
non-vegetarian SDA female = 84.0 years
...............Non-SDA female = 79.6 years

......Vegetarian SDA male = 83.3 years
...non-vegetarian SDA male = 81.0 years
..................Non-SDA male = 73.0 years

[LisaS]

what woke this thread up after 10 months of sleeping?

[maxlharris]

To help clear this up, The rate of Breast cancer in Asian women who eat 6 servings or more of soy a day is WAY less than Americans. Almost non existant.

Against my better judgment....

This is highly flawed as a data point. You are suggesting that a study of populations found that Asian women eat 6 servings a day of soy stuff and have a much lower incidence of breast cancer. And the only real difference between these Asian women and your typical American woman is the soy? There are hundreds of dietary differences between Asians in Asia and Americans that go beyond soy consumption. There are likely environmental differences that might explain it. There may be other lifestyle things going on.

Population studies are what got us 30+ years of low fat dieting, cholesterol paranoia, red meat fear, and a billion other culture of fear issues that are out there. They're popular (generally pretty easy to perform) but they are not really that worthwhile without subsequent research.

And to clear up another mis understanding, Vegetarians are proven to live longer than meat eaters. The very fact that meat eaters are eating way more environmental toxins and poisons as concentrated in animal fat and flesh would show that vegetarians are healthier. I don't mean people who live on pasta either as an example of a vegetarian. If you want to be vegetarian you have to me more careful of your diet.

Is it the meat that's the problem, or the toxins?

VEGETARIANS LIVE LONGER, HEALTHIER - Here's one reference.

Forwarded message from Fidyl <fidyl@yahoo.com>

[ Subject: SDA & Life Expectancy
[ From: Fidyl <fidyl@yahoo.com>
[ Date: Fri, 20 May 2005

SDA & Life Expectancy

Summary of life-expectancies of Californians:

...Vegetarian SDA female = 85.7 years
non-vegetarian SDA female = 84.0 years
...............Non-SDA female = 79.6 years

......Vegetarian SDA male = 83.3 years
...non-vegetarian SDA male = 81.0 years
..................Non-SDA male = 73.0 years


I wouldn't exactly call that a reference. But, assuming it's bad attribution rather than a random observation, it's plagued by the same kind of problem as the earlier assertion. What this study of Californians is trying to say is that the ONLY difference of any consequence between Veg-SDAs, non-veg SDA, and non-SDA people is the SDA and vegetarianism on top of SDA. And I'd be willing to bet money that the average SDA Veg or Non-veg is liable to do a ton of other health stuff that the average non-SDA person is not liable to do. Like, take an active interest in their health. Maybe exercise more. Maybe get some sun. Maybe bike to work. Maybe get hugged more. Or less. Or replace transfats with soy. Or wear more hemp clothing and use more bamboo sheets.

I'm not a vegetarian and I will likely never be one (course, I been born and I'm not dead yet, so there's no telling). I make the link between the things I cook and the things that were killed to allow me to eat them. I am not evangelical about my meat eating. I am evangelical about other people being evangelical about their vegetarianism or my meat eating. And poor study design and interpretation.

[Mayflowers]

This is info that I have gotten off the internet. This quote is from Dr. Weil's website.

"Japanese women whose diets contain a lot of soy foods have only one-fifth the rate of breast cancer that occurs among Western women."
The rest of the article on soy ishere:http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA326575.

I did notice that my cholesterol is higher and my HDL is lower than my LDL since I've been eating a lot of whole grain carbs like oats. I don't eat wheat, gluten intolerant. I've been eating oat bran and granola and you'd think my cholesterol would be lower...it's higher. Now I have to re think my eating. I want to use me as a lab rat for 3 months and follow a lower carb diet and see if my cholesterol improves...It wasn't bad but it was 205, non fasting.

I read that the Dr's Eades felt 200 was perfect. Not other docs. I'd just like to get my HDL up and the LDL down.

[laughingW]

And to clear up another mis understanding, Vegetarians are proven to live longer than meat eaters.

Not clear at all. Check out Gregor and his "Optimum Vegitarian Nutrition."

Yet several large sophisticated studies have been finding that people living on vegan as well as vegetarian diets have the same and worse mortality rates as omnivores for all of the major deadly diseases. This presentation explains how vegans, vegetarians, as well as omnivores can make a few simple changes to their diets to protect and optimize their health.

[SarahB150]

Just to add another element to the mix, there's also the idea that traditional methods of preparation of soy (i.e., fermentation) increase our use of it as a food product. (I got this from weston price foundation website).

Also, as I understand it, the Japanese eat way more fish than Americans. Instead of soy, why don't we latch onto fish as the "it"? Well, some have tried, but it seems like the furthest we've got is fish oil, not eating fish regularly.

There are so many different agendas met by proponing an herbivorous diet for humans. It's kind of funny---who would ever think to see New Age (Dr. Weill) agreeing with the powerful agriculture lobby agreeing with SDAs agreeing with Hindus. Vegetarianism as a basis of ecumenism?? I guess that depends on the degree of and reasons for the vegetarianism. ;) lol

[And please don't misunderstand me---I do not mean this as any kind of comment on any of these people, just a funny observation that occurred to me right now.

I used to be a vegetarian for ethical reasons. However, I am now a very happy carnivore, although I could never kill my own food. All my eggs and meat and dairy products and fish and seafood, etc., is wild harvested and/or pastured/grass-fed and humanely slaughtered, b/c it's the only way for me. WOW :eek: it puts a dent in the checkbook!! lol Well, so be it.]

[maxlharris]

This is info that I have gotten off the internet. This quote is from Dr. Weil's website.

"Japanese women whose diets contain a lot of soy foods have only one-fifth the rate of breast cancer that occurs among Western women."
The rest of the article on soy ishere:http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA326575.


So, I'm not anti-soy. I don't care for it. But I don't eat a lot of anything really. These 12 foods I eat, and all that. But, Dr. Weil drops this tidbit. It's clearly based on a population study, a type of observational study (http://www.stats.org/in_depth/faq/controlled_vs_observational.htm). The problem with them is mostly in interpretation, such as here.

Here, we are talking about a population of Japanese women as contrasted with Western women. We are talking about the incidence of a type of cancer among them, and we are saying that the only difference between Japanese Women and American Women is the consumption of soy.

As a bit of a student of women, I would be willing to suggest that there is more difference than Soy Consumption. The difference in incidence of one set of cancers might stem from any of the differences. It might stem from soy consumption. It might stem from a combination of factors. It's a little to easy to say, "well this is the difference and it is definitely the cause."

The other flaw is this. It's not a total mortality issue, it's a breast cancer study. I don't know that anyone has tracked total mortality on Japanese women who eat 5 serves of soy a day vs. western women. But I think that would be useful. If they aren't getting breast cancer, but are dying ten years earlier from a variety of causes, I think I might cut back on the soy. Even if it's a bad population study.

I did notice that my cholesterol is higher and my HDL is lower than my LDL since I've been eating a lot of whole grain carbs like oats. I don't eat wheat, gluten intolerant. I've been eating oat bran and granola and you'd think my cholesterol would be lower...it's higher. Now I have to re think my eating. I want to use me as a lab rat for 3 months and follow a lower carb diet and see if my cholesterol improves...It wasn't bad but it was 205, non fasting.

Dr. Eades, when he gets his panties in a bunch over Vegans, it's sometimes about how counter productive this "healthy" diet actually is (sometimes it's the terroristic PeTA that bunches his thong). Not that we worry about cholesterol around here, but as a marker, higher LDL and lower HDL is generally viewed as a not good thing.

I read that the Dr's Eades felt 200 was perfect. Not other docs. I'd just like to get my HDL up and the LDL down.

There's a range of declining incidence of heart problems as you scale down your total. There's a range of increased total cause mortality as you get under 160 I think. It's the same deal as our Japanese women (again, I don't know if they don't live longer, just putting out the possibility). I suppose not having a heart attack is a good thing. But if I'm dead, I dunno that I care what the cause was.

[laughingW]

I am now a very happy carnivore, although I could never kill my own food. All my eggs and meat and dairy products and fish and seafood, etc., is wild harvested and/or pastured/grass-fed and humanely slaughtered, b/c it's the only way for me. WOW :eek: it puts a dent in the checkbook!! lol Well, so be it.]
This is me too.

[Hootch]

But it's not me! I recently took up carnivorousness after... oooh years and years where I ate nothing but carbohydrate I think. Or at least seems like I have spent decades eating just bread and potatoes and oatmeal and pasta.... I must say I feel better on a lo-carb plan. But I also have nightmares about cannibalism! (This post isnt a criticism of people who eat meat, I hope it doesnt sound like that but it really doesnt seem to be for me.)
It's a bit of a quandry. I like soya, actually, I would be happy to eat it for every meal, but perhaps it is not the healthiest thing. I totally agree in principle with the lo-carb way. (And I have so much control over what I eat now, it is like a miracle, really.) Anyway it is just a shame I only like carbs - veg, fruit etc. What to do... I dont know.
Anyway, cheers everyone, interesting website,
H

[Mayflowers]

I also have had nightmares when I was eating meat in the past. I've been struggeling with vegetarianism for a while now and being gluten intolerant made everything worse. It's a ethical thing with me. I feel really bad about eating animals and I have this struggle. I also am somewhat soy, dairy and egg intolerant according to Enterolab testing. Not all states recognize testing by Enterolab, like New York state.

So, that doesn't leave me much to eat..I also get reactions to beans, like a spotted rash.. The most I could hope for is pescatarian and I have to come to accept it. My ancestors ate meat. Even my mother who is Italian gave me the gluten intolerance gene according to my tests. The celiac gene that I have is from my father, who's ancestors are northern european. English, Irish, Scotch.

I had a dream that cows were alien invaders attacking, and I was running away from them and they almost got me. :eek: . I stopped eating meat for a while. Then I started feeling lousy again.