Comments on: Low carb and calories, part 2 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/ A critical look at nutritional science and anything else that strikes my fancy. Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:02:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Stargazey http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-148535 Stargazey Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:06:36 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-148535 I don't have any articles to cite--just reasoning and all its attendant faults. Peter said, "In to the gap steps ASP, which allows us to store the fat from our current meal as adipose tissue for use in the time before our next meal." This may come from studies in mice, but it seems logical that ASP or something similar would operate in this way in humans. Otherwise we could not sleep all night without needing to eat. Glycogen stores and gluconeogenesis from muscle probably wouldn't cover energy needs for that many hours. It also seems logical that if more fat is stored by ASP than is subsequently utilized, in the long run there would be a net increase in the size of fat stores. To avoid large accumulations of fat, one would expect that thermogenesis and activity level would increase. Leptin would also tend to decrease appetite. If excess fat continued to be consumed, it is possible that the person would not become obese, but might become overweight. Finally, there has to be some mechanism by which people are able to deposit fat from an exclusively protein and fat diet. Historically the Inuit lived on such a diet for 6-9 months a year and carried sufficient body fat that they were able to reproduce with no particular problems. I don’t have any articles to cite–just reasoning and all its attendant faults.

Peter said, “In to the gap steps ASP, which allows us to store the fat from our current meal as adipose tissue for use in the time before our next meal.” This may come from studies in mice, but it seems logical that ASP or something similar would operate in this way in humans. Otherwise we could not sleep all night without needing to eat. Glycogen stores and gluconeogenesis from muscle probably wouldn’t cover energy needs for that many hours.

It also seems logical that if more fat is stored by ASP than is subsequently utilized, in the long run there would be a net increase in the size of fat stores. To avoid large accumulations of fat, one would expect that thermogenesis and activity level would increase. Leptin would also tend to decrease appetite. If excess fat continued to be consumed, it is possible that the person would not become obese, but might become overweight.

Finally, there has to be some mechanism by which people are able to deposit fat from an exclusively protein and fat diet. Historically the Inuit lived on such a diet for 6-9 months a year and carried sufficient body fat that they were able to reproduce with no particular problems.

]]> By: Dave http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-148484 Dave Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:39:05 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-148484 The fact that somebody doesn't become obese on a high-carb diet does not mean that diet is not damaging their health. Obesity is one symptom of a failure in the many mechanisms which regulate energy intake and utilization. The regulation is accomplished via a fairly complicated (and as yet incompletely understood) system of hormones and the central nervous system. Hormones activate genes, so of course genetic differences may account for differences in the manifestation of symptoms like obesity. That a particular individual does not respond with obesity to the major excursions in insulin brought about by a high-carb diet does NOT mean that those excursions are not screwing up their health. And there are basic biochemical reasons like glycation to believe large carbohydrate intake is detrimental to health. Similarly, it can be misleading to draw conclusions from a particular aspect of metabolism, such as how insulin or ASP influences energy storage in fat cells. Those particular actions must be considered in the larger context of regulatory network, which (I think at least) was clearly designed by evolution to avoid obesity (and other metabolic problems). The regulation of appetite, digestion, and energy utilization (e.g. increased thermogenesis) should all play together with fat storage to maintain the body's state in a healthy range. If you're storing too much fat, something is broken. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that a high-carb diet perturbs this system through its effect on insulin, not only promoting excess fat storage, but also screwing up appetite regulation. Though ASP can hypothetically store fat without insulin, I can't come up with a reason why a high-fat diet would perturb the rest of the rest of the system. I believe you'd need some other dysfunction, e.g. a genetic problem that causes fat cells to secrete little or no leptin. The fact that somebody doesn’t become obese on a high-carb diet does not mean that diet is not damaging their health. Obesity is one symptom of a failure in the many mechanisms which regulate energy intake and utilization. The regulation is accomplished via a fairly complicated (and as yet incompletely understood) system of hormones and the central nervous system. Hormones activate genes, so of course genetic differences may account for differences in the manifestation of symptoms like obesity. That a particular individual does not respond with obesity to the major excursions in insulin brought about by a high-carb diet does NOT mean that those excursions are not screwing up their health. And there are basic biochemical reasons like glycation to believe large carbohydrate intake is detrimental to health.

Similarly, it can be misleading to draw conclusions from a particular aspect of metabolism, such as how insulin or ASP influences energy storage in fat cells. Those particular actions must be considered in the larger context of regulatory network, which (I think at least) was clearly designed by evolution to avoid obesity (and other metabolic problems). The regulation of appetite, digestion, and energy utilization (e.g. increased thermogenesis) should all play together with fat storage to maintain the body’s state in a healthy range. If you’re storing too much fat, something is broken. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that a high-carb diet perturbs this system through its effect on insulin, not only promoting excess fat storage, but also screwing up appetite regulation. Though ASP can hypothetically store fat without insulin, I can’t come up with a reason why a high-fat diet would perturb the rest of the rest of the system. I believe you’d need some other dysfunction, e.g. a genetic problem that causes fat cells to secrete little or no leptin.

]]> By: gabe http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-148450 gabe Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:40:20 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-148450 To Leslie: very interesting link, thanks! One must be careful, however, in the interpretation of the ASP information, which applies to rats or mice and 'mice are not humans'. Mike has discuss these differences elsewhere on this blog and that is something very important to keep in mind. I should know... we use to make mice very obese by giving them a 'high-fat' diet (which in the end has a hefty 25% of their energy intake as one or another type of carbohydrate, plus a nice amount of transfats as part of the 'fatty' portion of their diets). That, as we all have experienced or read, doesn't necessarily translate into what happens to humans on a true low carbohydrate diet. I was usually laughed at when I made the remark that 'mice aren't humans'... something really not very popular when you do research in a group where the dogma is that it is the fat what is making their animals fat... I just wanted to add a few comments that I think may be of help when reading the information in Peter's Hyperlipid blog. The 'breadcrumbs' in Peter's Hyperlipid blog lead to another blog (Conditioning Research: http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com) with a link to an article published in 1998 about a study of changes in ASP in humans (with a very small sample size) after different intake of meals containing high doses of lipids. In that study, at least, there was no difference in the levels of ASP regardless of how much fat was in their diets. The study, in my opinion, had a couple of weaknesses; very small sample size, it was done using liquid and semi-liquid meals. I also think that any nutritional study comparing diets cannot be done in short periods of time as adaptation plays an important role in the effect of the macronutrients (and their composition) in any diet. The reason I bring that article up is to reiterate that if it happens in rats or mice, it doesn't necessarily happen in humans. The information on Peter's Hyperlipid blog refers to studies in mice. In Peter's Hyperlipid blog also there is continuous mention of protein necessarily being converted to glucose. While that is true for some amino acids, that responds to the need for glucose, not an automatic response. Furthermore, the glucose made from amino acids (gluconeogenesis) is not 'meant' to be use to supply energy demands but for stabilization of blood glucose when this is necessary. For energy supply, utilization of ketone bodies is a process far more efficient that yields more energy, thus sparing muscle protein to be use for energy, unless one is in an extended fasting period, which is 'true' starvation, as opposed to an overnight fast. I found this very interesting: "Excess weight is the result of a failure of adipocytes to release energy, hunger is needed to supply any shortfall needed for metabolism." Under a low carbohydrate diet, that may not be what needs to happen. There are other reasons for weight gain. Whether that weight is in excess or not depend on individual parameters. In other words, the question would be whether on a low carbohydrate diet one gains weight to the same levels of pre-LC, which would be a complete failure of the diet. I don't think that is the case with low carbohydrate diets. The studies conducted by Margriet Westerterp-Plantega, have shown that while once the weight loss phase is over after following a higher intake of protein in the diet, the weight gained is not from fat but from 'fat-free' mass. On average and according to her, the amount of weight gain was 1-2 kg. The importance of those and other studies is not only that the weight is from fat-free mass, but also that the weight gain came during the maintenance phase, when individuals were still consuming a protein-rich diet. So, at least from that perspective, weight gain is not a bad thing as long is from fat-free mass. Unfortunately in Peter's Hyperlipid blood is difficult to read if the weight gain he writes about is from fat-free mass or not. One easy way to find that out at any time during the maintenance phase (or any other phase for that matter), is to estimate our lean body mass and track that parameter instead of just total weight. Thanks again for the link, which I agree is worth reading. To Leslie: very interesting link, thanks! One must be careful, however, in the interpretation of the ASP information, which applies to rats or mice and ‘mice are not humans’. Mike has discuss these differences elsewhere on this blog and that is something very important to keep in mind. I should know… we use to make mice very obese by giving them a ‘high-fat’ diet (which in the end has a hefty 25% of their energy intake as one or another type of carbohydrate, plus a nice amount of transfats as part of the ‘fatty’ portion of their diets). That, as we all have experienced or read, doesn’t necessarily translate into what happens to humans on a true low carbohydrate diet. I was usually laughed at when I made the remark that ‘mice aren’t humans’… something really not very popular when you do research in a group where the dogma is that it is the fat what is making their animals fat…

I just wanted to add a few comments that I think may be of help when reading the information in Peter’s Hyperlipid blog. The ‘breadcrumbs’ in Peter’s Hyperlipid blog lead to another blog (Conditioning Research: http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com) with a link to an article published in 1998 about a study of changes in ASP in humans (with a very small sample size) after different intake of meals containing high doses of lipids. In that study, at least, there was no difference in the levels of ASP regardless of how much fat was in their diets. The study, in my opinion, had a couple of weaknesses; very small sample size, it was done using liquid and semi-liquid meals. I also think that any nutritional study comparing diets cannot be done in short periods of time as adaptation plays an important role in the effect of the macronutrients (and their composition) in any diet. The reason I bring that article up is to reiterate that if it happens in rats or mice, it doesn’t necessarily happen in humans. The information on Peter’s Hyperlipid blog refers to studies in mice.

In Peter’s Hyperlipid blog also there is continuous mention of protein necessarily being converted to glucose. While that is true for some amino acids, that responds to the need for glucose, not an automatic response. Furthermore, the glucose made from amino acids (gluconeogenesis) is not ‘meant’ to be use to supply energy demands but for stabilization of blood glucose when this is necessary. For energy supply, utilization of ketone bodies is a process far more efficient that yields more energy, thus sparing muscle protein to be use for energy, unless one is in an extended fasting period, which is ‘true’ starvation, as opposed to an overnight fast.

I found this very interesting:

“Excess weight is the result of a failure of adipocytes to release energy, hunger is needed to supply any shortfall needed for metabolism.”

Under a low carbohydrate diet, that may not be what needs to happen. There are other reasons for weight gain. Whether that weight is in excess or not depend on individual parameters. In other words, the question would be whether on a low carbohydrate diet one gains weight to the same levels of pre-LC, which would be a complete failure of the diet. I don’t think that is the case with low carbohydrate diets.

The studies conducted by Margriet Westerterp-Plantega, have shown that while once the weight loss phase is over after following a higher intake of protein in the diet, the weight gained is not from fat but from ‘fat-free’ mass. On average and according to her, the amount of weight gain was 1-2 kg. The importance of those and other studies is not only that the weight is from fat-free mass, but also that the weight gain came during the maintenance phase, when individuals were still consuming a protein-rich diet. So, at least from that perspective, weight gain is not a bad thing as long is from fat-free mass. Unfortunately in Peter’s Hyperlipid blood is difficult to read if the weight gain he writes about is from fat-free mass or not. One easy way to find that out at any time during the maintenance phase (or any other phase for that matter), is to estimate our lean body mass and track that parameter instead of just total weight.

Thanks again for the link, which I agree is worth reading.

]]> By: Leslie http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-148335 Leslie Thu, 10 Jul 2008 04:24:25 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-148335 I read a very interesting post on Peter's Hyperlipid blog (which I only found from a comment in another of your blog posts). It pretty clearly explains the mechanisms of excess fat storage even on LC diets. His most interesting statement is about an often overlooked fact: even with LC diets and low insulin levels, fat consumed at each meal must still be stored for use until the next meal, accomplished by the Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) enzyme NOT insulin. Also, he states that excess protein is converted to glucose, requiring a hefty dose of insulin. His post makes sense to me in an evolutionary aspect: if our ancestors were LC, they still had to store fat! It's just that their mechanism for releasing the stored fat for energy needs was humming along nicely, and not compromised by grains, medications, and the many other bombs of modern life that affect insulin sensitivity. It's worth a careful read. http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Weight%20loss%3B%20when%20it%27s%20hard I read a very interesting post on Peter’s Hyperlipid blog (which I only found from a comment in another of your blog posts). It pretty clearly explains the mechanisms of excess fat storage even on LC diets. His most interesting statement is about an often overlooked fact: even with LC diets and low insulin levels, fat consumed at each meal must still be stored for use until the next meal, accomplished by the Acylation Stimulating Protein (ASP) enzyme NOT insulin. Also, he states that excess protein is converted to glucose, requiring a hefty dose of insulin. His post makes sense to me in an evolutionary aspect: if our ancestors were LC, they still had to store fat! It’s just that their mechanism for releasing the stored fat for energy needs was humming along nicely, and not compromised by grains, medications, and the many other bombs of modern life that affect insulin sensitivity. It’s worth a careful read.

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Weight%20loss%3B%20when%20it%27s%20hard

]]> By: Stargazey http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-144228 Stargazey Fri, 27 Jun 2008 20:59:33 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-144228 Thanks for answering my question, Dr. Eades. Sorry for the complexity, but what I was getting at (and I think what Vesna was getting at earlier) was the need to understand the <i>mechanism</i> of how low carb plus mass quantities of fat and/or protein leads to weight maintenance and not weight gain. We're not clinicians, and we can only observe an "n" of 1 in most cases. So when we read your two posts on low carb and calories, we know you're telling us the truth, but we don't understand how it works, exactly. It's helpful for us to get an explanation on a biochemical and physiological level. Just to brown-nose a bit, you do a good job of explaining biochemistry and physiology for the masses. :) In any case,thanks for your patience! <em>Thanks. I should probably do a post on calorie wasting because it's extremely interesting (at least to me), and I think a lot of readers would find it interesting. Problem is that it's pretty technical, and I don't know how simple I can make it while still keeping it accurate. If I keep it accurate, then it can become textbook like and dull as dishwater. Cheers-- MRE</em> Thanks for answering my question, Dr. Eades. Sorry for the complexity, but what I was getting at (and I think what Vesna was getting at earlier) was the need to understand the mechanism of how low carb plus mass quantities of fat and/or protein leads to weight maintenance and not weight gain.

We’re not clinicians, and we can only observe an “n” of 1 in most cases. So when we read your two posts on low carb and calories, we know you’re telling us the truth, but we don’t understand how it works, exactly. It’s helpful for us to get an explanation on a biochemical and physiological level. Just to brown-nose a bit, you do a good job of explaining biochemistry and physiology for the masses. :) In any case,thanks for your patience!

Thanks. I should probably do a post on calorie wasting because it’s extremely interesting (at least to me), and I think a lot of readers would find it interesting. Problem is that it’s pretty technical, and I don’t know how simple I can make it while still keeping it accurate. If I keep it accurate, then it can become textbook like and dull as dishwater.

Cheers–

MRE

]]> By: Stargazey http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-143529 Stargazey Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:56:02 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-143529 It seems that my comment/question has gone into the ether. Trying again. Say I'm at maintenance, and that I acquire the habit of snacking on coconut oil right off the spoon. If I ate 10 tablespoons a day of this stuff, I would be ingesting an extra 1260 calories of fat. My question is, what happens to the extra fat? Does my body become a mini-furnace and burn it off? Do I excrete it in my urine and/or feces? Or does something else happen to the fat that I'm not thinking of? Does somebody hit the "Delete" button and it all disappears? Similarly, what happens to the extra protein that I eat--the amount that I consume in excess of what is needed for maintenance and repair of my tissues? You say that if blood sugar is not low, the protein does not get converted to glucose. I wonder if that's true, because my blood sugar does rise after I've eaten a meal that consists only of fat and protein. Am I simply seeing a release of stored sugar in response to glucagon? If the extra protein doesn't become glucose, does it get converted to ketone bodies and get burned or excreted that way? Or does it get broken down into amino acids and leave the body in that form? Dr. Eades, or any physiologist who happens to read this, I would appreciate any input you could provide. Thanks in advance. <em>Hey Stargazey-- A pretty complex question for a comment. Assuming you could eat 10 TBS of coconut oil without puking what would happen? A number of things. You would probably decrease your caloric intake for the rest of the day or even the next day. The extra fat calories would be burned off in a number of ways: increased futile cycling, an increased proton leak across the inner mitochondrial membrane and an increased production of uncoupling proteins leading to an uncoupling of oxidation and phosphorylation. You would no doubt move and fidget more, your body wouldn't do anything to conserve energy. I could go on. There are a host of ways that excess calories can be dissipated under the right metabolic (read: low insulin) conditions. Protein acts pretty much the same. It's simply another fuel. Cheers-- MRE</em> It seems that my comment/question has gone into the ether. Trying again.

Say I’m at maintenance, and that I acquire the habit of snacking on coconut oil right off the spoon. If I ate 10 tablespoons a day of this stuff, I would be ingesting an extra 1260 calories of fat. My question is, what happens to the extra fat? Does my body become a mini-furnace and burn it off? Do I excrete it in my urine and/or feces? Or does something else happen to the fat that I’m not thinking of? Does somebody hit the “Delete” button and it all disappears?

Similarly, what happens to the extra protein that I eat–the amount that I consume in excess of what is needed for maintenance and repair of my tissues? You say that if blood sugar is not low, the protein does not get converted to glucose. I wonder if that’s true, because my blood sugar does rise after I’ve eaten a meal that consists only of fat and protein. Am I simply seeing a release of stored sugar in response to glucagon? If the extra protein doesn’t become glucose, does it get converted to ketone bodies and get burned or excreted that way? Or does it get broken down into amino acids and leave the body in that form?

Dr. Eades, or any physiologist who happens to read this, I would appreciate any input you could provide. Thanks in advance.

Hey Stargazey–

A pretty complex question for a comment.

Assuming you could eat 10 TBS of coconut oil without puking what would happen? A number of things.
You would probably decrease your caloric intake for the rest of the day or even the next day. The extra fat calories would be burned off in a number of ways: increased futile cycling, an increased proton leak across the inner mitochondrial membrane and an increased production of uncoupling proteins leading to an uncoupling of oxidation and phosphorylation. You would no doubt move and fidget more, your body wouldn’t do anything to conserve energy. I could go on. There are a host of ways that excess calories can be dissipated under the right metabolic (read: low insulin) conditions.

Protein acts pretty much the same. It’s simply another fuel.

Cheers–

MRE

]]> By: Vadim http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-141359 Vadim Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:48:48 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-141359 I read Colpo comment after hearing about this guy for a while. I have a simple philosophy when it comes to menhood and it comes from sports; any man that resorts to degrading, nasty, name-calling tactics ought to examine himself! There is absolutely no need for that. In arguments truth is born, but it has to be civil and respectful. Dr Mike I dont know you personally but being here and seing you on tv makes me your follower and a believer! I just intuitively trust you! I was too paralized by analysis of many different diets but eventually decided to go back to low carb and it is working so far. I know that there is no one size fits all when it comes to human, in any regard. Dr Mike I trust you, respect you and am sure many thousands of others do as well. For every Calpo out there there are thousands and thousands of Vadims. And once again thanks for your patience, free advices and world of information! I read Colpo comment after hearing about this guy for a while. I have a simple philosophy when it comes to menhood and it comes from sports; any man that resorts to degrading, nasty, name-calling tactics ought to examine himself! There is absolutely no need for that. In arguments truth is born, but it has to be civil and respectful. Dr Mike I dont know you personally but being here and seing you on tv makes me your follower and a believer! I just intuitively trust you! I was too paralized by analysis of many different diets but eventually decided to go back to low carb and it is working so far. I know that there is no one size fits all when it comes to human, in any regard. Dr Mike I trust you, respect you and am sure many thousands of others do as well. For every Calpo out there there are thousands and thousands of Vadims. And once again thanks for your patience, free advices and world of information!

]]> By: Melissa Dorsey http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-141356 Melissa Dorsey Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:45:50 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-141356 My personal experience is that exercise is sometimes suppressive but very occasionally will make me want to eat a lot. Most of the time, I train 3-5 times a week in a strenuous, competitive "sport" and will go into the training hungry rather than eat anything and get nauseous. After a bit in the workout and right after I am not hungry at all, and when I do get hungry I don't have a feeling of extreme hunger, I just want my dinner. Sometimes, though, if I have been shorting my calories (not intentionally), or for no discernible reason I will just want a huge dinner instead of the usual small meal we eat at home. I cannot explain it, I don't understand it, but most of the time exercise has a suppressive effect on my appetite, but not always. My personal experience is that exercise is sometimes suppressive but very occasionally will make me want to eat a lot. Most of the time, I train 3-5 times a week in a strenuous, competitive “sport” and will go into the training hungry rather than eat anything and get nauseous. After a bit in the workout and right after I am not hungry at all, and when I do get hungry I don’t have a feeling of extreme hunger, I just want my dinner.

Sometimes, though, if I have been shorting my calories (not intentionally), or for no discernible reason I will just want a huge dinner instead of the usual small meal we eat at home. I cannot explain it, I don’t understand it, but most of the time exercise has a suppressive effect on my appetite, but not always.

]]> By: Marco http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-141276 Marco Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:36:11 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-141276 Hi Mike. I can't save your precious articles on my Pc as .mht files anymore. :-( Any suggestions? Marco <em>Hey Marco-- Good to hear from you. I don't have a clue as to why you can't save the articles as .mht files. Moreover, I don't even know what an .mht file is. Sorry. Cheers-- MRE</em> Hi Mike.

I can’t save your precious articles on my Pc as .mht files anymore.

:-(

Any suggestions?

Marco

Hey Marco–

Good to hear from you. I don’t have a clue as to why you can’t save the articles as .mht files. Moreover, I don’t even know what an .mht file is. Sorry.

Cheers–

MRE

]]> By: Dan http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/weight-loss/low-carb-and-calories-part-2/comment-page-3/#comment-141237 Dan Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:06:22 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=1252#comment-141237 I seem to have missed out on the energy boost that many seem to get from low carbing. I seem to be as tired now as before starting (4 years ago). My maintenance level is about 100g and I do slow burn strength exercises. Any ideas why this might be? Has anybody else found this? I seem to have missed out on the energy boost that many seem to get from low carbing. I seem to be as tired now as before starting (4 years ago). My maintenance level is about 100g and I do slow burn strength exercises.

Any ideas why this might be?

Has anybody else found this?

]]>