“Any rules of thumb on how much fat you should consume with a salad or a piece of fruit?”

Unless I misunderstood… Anyway, the good thing is that you get so many comments here and it’s easy to get lost sometimes, isn’t it? I mean, as you saw before, somebody misquoted me on another entry you made. In any case, I’m glad the advice was the correct one and hopefully it will help somebody. Cheers!

Hi Gabe–

You’re right. Sorry. I got the comment that you wrote about ‘how much fat’ confused with another that I had just answered asking the question ‘is there a rule of thumb about how much sugar.’ My apologies.

With all the comments flying so fast and furiously, it’s hard to keep them straight in my head.

Best–

MRE

***
The carbohydrate content of pre-agricultural diets was generally
lower than the 45-55% of the western diet. Consequently the
post-prandial lipemic excursions, during which LDL molecules are most
prone to oxidation would have been reduced, since the addition of
carbohydrate to a fat rich meal exacerbates this swing (12).
Pre-agricultural eating patterns show that fat and protein were
generally eaten together whereas, carbohydrate meals were eaten
separately. This eating pattern would have reduced post-prandial
lipemic excursions. Additionally, the reduced carbohydrate content of
pre-agricultural diets would have improved the portions of the blood
lipid profile (TG, VLDL, HDL, Lp(a)) which are worsened by high
carbohydrate diets (13).

12. Chen YDI et al. Effect of acute variations in dietary fat and
carbohydrate intake on retinly ester content of intestinally derived
lipoproteins. J Clin Endocrin Metabolism 1992;74:28-32.

13. Reaven GM. Pathophysiology of insulin resistance in human disease.
Physiol Rev 1995 75:473-86.
***

So Cordain says fat and carbs together is a bad idea because of LDL oxidation. But this study says you don’t absorb nutrients in carbs if you eat don’t fat and carbs together. What to do?

Hi Imsovain–

I’ve read all the above papers and I’ve talked about this with Dr. Cordain. Neither of us thinks that the amount of carb contained in a good, whole foods, low-carb diet is enough to oxidize LDL. Go for the colorful fruits and vegetables, use a little good quality oil or butter, and eat up.

Best–

MRE

“Whatever fat comes with the good choices of protein, plus a little of the good fats in avocados, cheese and butter/good oils used to cook vegetables provides plenty of fat. ‘Plenty’ usually falls into the ‘moderate’ category, thus making the plan carbohydrate-controlled, adequate in protein and moderate in fat”.

Even if the choices of protein are lean (if one of the protein sources is beef), they always come with its nice amount of fat, which not only helps with the absorption of vitamins in vegetables but also with the taste of the meat itself.

It’s common to hear the argument of ‘all that fat…’ but it’s really hard for people to consciously add excessive fat to their diet, unless they choose to start eating butter sticks.

Hi Gabe–

I agree with everything you wrote. But, the commenter asked about a rule of thumb concerning sugar intake, not fat.

Thanks–

MRE

Hi–

I don’t know of a rule of thumb. I just always try to eat at least a little fat every time I eat fruits and/or vegetables. A little cheese with the fruit, a little butter with the vegetables.

MRE

“If the facts don’t fit theory… change the facts!”

I should know. I set out to follow your Protein Power plan to the letter so I could ‘disprove’ your theory with my facts and point its flaws to you and MD, remember? Seven years later, without having found the flaw, and after ‘changing my facts’, I’m so happy I was wrong. The lipid hypothesis, and in some ‘expert’ minds already the lipid ‘theory’ is long overdue and given the amount of data against it, is just amazing how many serious scientists are still trying to make the facts fit their hypothesis… whatever the cost!

Since I love to read about the geniuses of the past, perhaps what Max Planck said will prove valid regarding the lipid hypothesis:

“A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

Hi Gabe–

Thanks for the kind words about PP.

The Max Planck quote is, unfortunately, right on the money. But it’s understandable. If I were a researcher who had built my career on the idea that fat is a demon, it would be difficult to write it all off if the facts showed (as they have) that fat is okay. I would spend the rest of my days trying to justify my beliefs.

Best–

MRE

Formation of trans fatty acids and cyclic fatty acid monomers was investigated during refining of low erucic acid rapeseed oil. The first steps of the refining process, that is, degumming, neutralization, and bleaching, hardly modified the fatty acid profile. In contrast, deodorization produced substantial quantities of trans fatty acids (>5% of total fatty acids)

The above was supposed to be the 1st section of comment that I sent. I apologize for the mistake. My point simply was that these researchers had found that the deodorization process had produced trans fatty acids in canola oil. Your point that these conditions cannot be duplicated in the frying pan is accurate. Deodorization occurs under vacuum and at > 400F, at or above the smoke point under normal conditions. As always, thanks for your time and the space to comment and my apologies for the error.

Hi Mark–

I think I posted a while back about the deodorization process creating trans fats in canola oil. It can absolutely occur in that way. That’s why MD and I avoid them now.

Best–

MRE

Hydrogenation (Volume-2/How Margarine and Butter are made from same website)

2 The oil is then hydrogenated to ensure the correct consistency for margarine production, a
state referred to as “plastic” or semi-solid. In this process, hydrogen gas is added to the oil under pressurized conditions. The hydrogen particles stay with the oil, helping to increase the temperature point at which it will melt and to make the oil less susceptible to contamination
through oxidation.

Color me confused. While not disagreeing with the foremost authority on trans fats, Mary Enig who probably deserves a Nobel Prize for blowing the whistle on trans fats, these scientists produced trans fats without the use of nickel as catalyst, without a source of hydrogen (although it’s possible that steam could be a source) and in a vacuum rather than under pressure. This is not withstanding that ruminants also produce trans fats although in different composition, because man cannot duplicate that process. Thanks for the space and time and also the interesting websites I keep finding.

Hi Mark–

Looks to me like they did use hydrogen (“hydrogen gas is added to the oil under pressurized conditions”) At any rate, what I’m (and Mary Enig) talking about is that you can’t hydrogentate vegetable oils by heating them on a stove or in a deep fryer. There may well be some process food manufacturers use that does result in partial hydrogenation, but nothing that I know of that the average Joe can do to the oil in his own kitchen to convert it to a trans fat.

Best–

MRE

Perhaps this is why I’m feeling so good? Lots of veggies, fat, fruit, fat, meat, fat and local red wines.

Never felt more anabolic!

Fred

Hi Fred–

Thanks for the kind words about the post. Have fun in Greece and eat some good lamb and a cucumber and tomato salad for me. Don’t forget to have a couple of glasses of that good, prickly local Greek red wine.

Best–

MRE

Hi David–

If you can find it beef tallow is a great choice. Others would be lard or coconut oil, but those are kind of expensive too. I wouldn’t use grape seen oil, organic or otherwise, because it contains way too much of the polyunsaturated fats that are prone to oxidation.

Best–

MRE

My probs have been that as have been in Europe, Africa, Australia, America and now finally Can-Ardour since starting eating this ‘way’(since 96)its diff to find the same brand in each place.

So for N America can anyone suggest what they think are really good quality multivits and antioxidants and magnesium pleasum ?

Email is supachramp@yahoo.com

thanks muchly