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	<title>Comments on: Relative risk</title>
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	<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/</link>
	<description>A critical look at nutritional science and anything else that strikes my fancy.</description>
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		<title>By: Nominee for the Reckless award &#187; Michael R. Eades, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-25691</link>
		<dc:creator>Nominee for the Reckless award &#187; Michael R. Eades, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 05:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-25691</guid>
		<description>[...] If you read on through the rest of the studies, you find that one has a relative risk ratio of 1.37 while the rest are well below that. Since, in my opinion, the relative risk needs to be at least 2 to be meaningful, all these studies fall far short of having the scientific validity to put the 16 million adults with type II diabetes on statin drugs at a cost of $28 billion per year. Unless, of course, you&#8217;re a seller of statin drugs, then you might think differently. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If you read on through the rest of the studies, you find that one has a relative risk ratio of 1.37 while the rest are well below that. Since, in my opinion, the relative risk needs to be at least 2 to be meaningful, all these studies fall far short of having the scientific validity to put the 16 million adults with type II diabetes on statin drugs at a cost of $28 billion per year. Unless, of course, you&#8217;re a seller of statin drugs, then you might think differently. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-23256</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 16:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-23256</guid>
		<description>I have always loved claims of 50% or 100% better when they do not state the base number.

Even though it is basically impossible to win a lottery, it actually is impossible if you don&#039;t get a ticket. So, your chances of winning are infinitely better if you get a ticket, sounds good to me - so why do I keep losing?

&lt;em&gt;Precisely!  And if you buy two lottery tickets you&#039;ve got twice as much of a chance to win.  You go from 1 in 75 million to 2 in 75 million.  Your odds are doubled, but even doubled are virtually non-existent.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have always loved claims of 50% or 100% better when they do not state the base number.</p>
<p>Even though it is basically impossible to win a lottery, it actually is impossible if you don&#8217;t get a ticket. So, your chances of winning are infinitely better if you get a ticket, sounds good to me &#8211; so why do I keep losing?</p>
<p><em>Precisely!  And if you buy two lottery tickets you&#8217;ve got twice as much of a chance to win.  You go from 1 in 75 million to 2 in 75 million.  Your odds are doubled, but even doubled are virtually non-existent.</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: Bob Fritchey</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-23065</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Fritchey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 23:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-23065</guid>
		<description>Here are two other medical &#039;statistics&#039; that I&#039;m very skeptical of, but although I&#039;ve HEARD the counter-arguments, I don&#039;t have the actual numbers to back them up. Perhaps you&#039;ve heard them:

1) The US has the worst infant mortality rate of any industrialized nation, and lags behind even Cuba.

rebuttal:  The US includes as &#039;infant mortalities&#039; many cases that would be classified otherwise in many other countries, and &#039;at risk&#039; births really have a FAR better survival rate in the US than any other country in the world.

2) The Japanese eat massive quantities of rice, but have FAR lower incidence of heart attack than the US, proving that eating rice, although high carb, doesn&#039;t cause cardio-vascular problems.

rebuttal:  While the incidence of heart attack is much lower for the Japanese, the incidence of stroke is several times greater. Combining both, the statistics are about the same in both countries where a high-carb diet is the norm. The difference between heart attack and stroke is probably due to the large amount of fish and seafood in the Japanese diet.

On the second point, I thought I had seen the data in The Protein Power Lifeplan, but I flipped through it, albeit casually, over the weekend, and didn&#039;t catch it. I&#039;ll look again, but I may be remembering it incorrectly.

&lt;em&gt;Hi Bob--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;I think you&#039;re right.  Sorry it&#039;s taken me so long to post this comment, but somehow you got hung up in my spam filter.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are two other medical &#8217;statistics&#8217; that I&#8217;m very skeptical of, but although I&#8217;ve HEARD the counter-arguments, I don&#8217;t have the actual numbers to back them up. Perhaps you&#8217;ve heard them:</p>
<p>1) The US has the worst infant mortality rate of any industrialized nation, and lags behind even Cuba.</p>
<p>rebuttal:  The US includes as &#8216;infant mortalities&#8217; many cases that would be classified otherwise in many other countries, and &#8216;at risk&#8217; births really have a FAR better survival rate in the US than any other country in the world.</p>
<p>2) The Japanese eat massive quantities of rice, but have FAR lower incidence of heart attack than the US, proving that eating rice, although high carb, doesn&#8217;t cause cardio-vascular problems.</p>
<p>rebuttal:  While the incidence of heart attack is much lower for the Japanese, the incidence of stroke is several times greater. Combining both, the statistics are about the same in both countries where a high-carb diet is the norm. The difference between heart attack and stroke is probably due to the large amount of fish and seafood in the Japanese diet.</p>
<p>On the second point, I thought I had seen the data in The Protein Power Lifeplan, but I flipped through it, albeit casually, over the weekend, and didn&#8217;t catch it. I&#8217;ll look again, but I may be remembering it incorrectly.</p>
<p><em>Hi Bob&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>I think you&#8217;re right.  Sorry it&#8217;s taken me so long to post this comment, but somehow you got hung up in my spam filter.</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: Relativ risk &#171; Low-carb-bloggen</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22620</link>
		<dc:creator>Relativ risk &#171; Low-carb-bloggen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 09:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22620</guid>
		<description>[...] Postat av arne9 pÃ¥ april 7th, 2007  Man hÃ¶r ofta talas om att det Ã¤r dubbelt sÃ¥ farligt att gÃ¶ra si Ã¤n att gÃ¶ra sÃ¥. NÃ¤r medierna refererar undersÃ¶kningar och studier talas det ofta om relativ risk. Det Ã¤r ett lurigt sÃ¤tt att presentera sanningen pÃ¥. Man bÃ¶r nog veta lite om hur man anvÃ¤nder relativ risk fÃ¶r att fÃ¶rstÃ¥ vad det egentligen betyder. Eades har skrivit om relativ risk pÃ¥ ett enkelt och pedagogiskt sÃ¤tt hÃ¤r. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Postat av arne9 pÃ¥ april 7th, 2007  Man hÃ¶r ofta talas om att det Ã¤r dubbelt sÃ¥ farligt att gÃ¶ra si Ã¤n att gÃ¶ra sÃ¥. NÃ¤r medierna refererar undersÃ¶kningar och studier talas det ofta om relativ risk. Det Ã¤r ett lurigt sÃ¤tt att presentera sanningen pÃ¥. Man bÃ¶r nog veta lite om hur man anvÃ¤nder relativ risk fÃ¶r att fÃ¶rstÃ¥ vad det egentligen betyder. Eades har skrivit om relativ risk pÃ¥ ett enkelt och pedagogiskt sÃ¤tt hÃ¤r. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: KAZ</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22408</link>
		<dc:creator>KAZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 16:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22408</guid>
		<description>I rambled on for so long that you forgot to answer my initial question, as to what the relative cancer risk of smoking actually is.

&lt;em&gt;Hi Kaz--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;I don&#039;t know off the top of my head.  I&#039;ll see if I can ferret it out. If I had to guess I would say around 3 for cancer.  Probably much higher if you look at overall illness including heart disease, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, etc.
&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I rambled on for so long that you forgot to answer my initial question, as to what the relative cancer risk of smoking actually is.</p>
<p><em>Hi Kaz&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>I don&#8217;t know off the top of my head.  I&#8217;ll see if I can ferret it out. If I had to guess I would say around 3 for cancer.  Probably much higher if you look at overall illness including heart disease, chronic bronchitis, emphysema, etc.<br />
</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: Paul B.</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22385</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22385</guid>
		<description>Great post and comments. I would add that along with risk and cost, benefit should be part of the equation. Using smoking as an example, some adults believe the risk of disease is offset by their enjoyment of the habit and other benefits (&quot;it keeps me slim,&quot; &quot;it helps me relax,&quot; etc). Intelligent or not, adults have the right to make such trade offs as long as they do not force others to pay for the consequences. The nanny politicians and busybody public health authorities seem incapable of grasping that some of us are willing to take some measure of risk in return for pleasure.

&lt;em&gt;Hi Paul--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;That&#039;s because in their minds they are much smarter than we are and know so much better what we should do than we do.  Therefore, since they are so much smarter, they need to set the rules for the great unwashed masses of the rest of us.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post and comments. I would add that along with risk and cost, benefit should be part of the equation. Using smoking as an example, some adults believe the risk of disease is offset by their enjoyment of the habit and other benefits (&#8221;it keeps me slim,&#8221; &#8220;it helps me relax,&#8221; etc). Intelligent or not, adults have the right to make such trade offs as long as they do not force others to pay for the consequences. The nanny politicians and busybody public health authorities seem incapable of grasping that some of us are willing to take some measure of risk in return for pleasure.</p>
<p><em>Hi Paul&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>That&#8217;s because in their minds they are much smarter than we are and know so much better what we should do than we do.  Therefore, since they are so much smarter, they need to set the rules for the great unwashed masses of the rest of us.</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: Barbara</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22373</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22373</guid>
		<description>Ah, fun with numbers!  A very informative post, thank you. I&#039;m looking forward to the forthcoming related ones.
&lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://www.quotegarden.com/statistics.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s some fun with quotes...&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Hi Barbara--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Thanks for the statistic quotes.  I enjoyed them and will probably appropriate a few.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, fun with numbers!  A very informative post, thank you. I&#8217;m looking forward to the forthcoming related ones.<br />
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.quotegarden.com/statistics.html" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s some fun with quotes&#8230;</a></p>
<p><em>Hi Barbara&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>Thanks for the statistic quotes.  I enjoyed them and will probably appropriate a few.</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: Rusty</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22232</link>
		<dc:creator>Rusty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 22:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22232</guid>
		<description>Hi Dr. Eades,

The use of relative risk statistics by &quot;big pharma&quot; to sell their drugs is the primary reason I don&#039;t trust physicians easily. Quite frankly, I think the use of statistics in this manner, while technically not fraud, accomplishes the same thing.  There is clear intent to mislead, and influence people to make decisions they would not otherwise make.  As you state 2.4 people oout of 40,000 sounds a lot less risky than 39% increase.

The anxiety and fear used by medicine to drain our pockets of our money is dispicable enough. We don&#039;t need the facts further confused by the use of relative risk statistics applied to &quot;risk factors&quot; that probably aren&#039;t true risk factors at all.

I believe it was Malcolm Kendrick that wrote about need for a &quot;funeral rate.&quot; I&#039;m interested knowing the abosulte risk of any food, drug, vitamin, herb, or whatever that I introduce into my body. But I hope we don&#039;t have to bankrupt our country before this other nonsense will stop.

Thanks for writing this piece and please do some more.

Rusty

&lt;em&gt;Hi Rusty--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;I definitely plan to do some more.  This one was merely teeing up the RR for use later on.  Stay tuned.
&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dr. Eades,</p>
<p>The use of relative risk statistics by &#8220;big pharma&#8221; to sell their drugs is the primary reason I don&#8217;t trust physicians easily. Quite frankly, I think the use of statistics in this manner, while technically not fraud, accomplishes the same thing.  There is clear intent to mislead, and influence people to make decisions they would not otherwise make.  As you state 2.4 people oout of 40,000 sounds a lot less risky than 39% increase.</p>
<p>The anxiety and fear used by medicine to drain our pockets of our money is dispicable enough. We don&#8217;t need the facts further confused by the use of relative risk statistics applied to &#8220;risk factors&#8221; that probably aren&#8217;t true risk factors at all.</p>
<p>I believe it was Malcolm Kendrick that wrote about need for a &#8220;funeral rate.&#8221; I&#8217;m interested knowing the abosulte risk of any food, drug, vitamin, herb, or whatever that I introduce into my body. But I hope we don&#8217;t have to bankrupt our country before this other nonsense will stop.</p>
<p>Thanks for writing this piece and please do some more.</p>
<p>Rusty</p>
<p><em>Hi Rusty&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>I definitely plan to do some more.  This one was merely teeing up the RR for use later on.  Stay tuned.<br />
</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: KAZ</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22162</link>
		<dc:creator>KAZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22162</guid>
		<description>What, going not by CDC/NIH projections and suppositions, but the most conservative and hard-science-based guess, is the relative risk of smoking to cause cancer, then?

Anyway, failure to include actual risk in a fearful calculation is one of the biggest problems our authoritarian society has.

The odds of an asteroid impact is almost zero. But all the NASA bureaucrats seeking bigger budgets focus upon is the consequences if one actually did occur.

Every activity or item that gets effectively banned by government regulations or lawsuits gains that status without any sane examination of the actual odds. Ten million people could do/use something, and ten die, and it might get banned, directly or through lawsuits making it too expensive to provide.

Likewise, the odds of Hussein having had WMD was almost nil, going by the intelligence available at the time, but the consequences were so scary that people accepted ridiculous lies, exaggerations, and suppositions.

The only models that claim humans are causing greenhouse-based global warming fail 100% of the time, when historic data is plugged into them. The only global increase in temperatures is of surface temperatures, which cannot be caused by the greenhouse effect, but must have some other source. So the odds of human greenhouse emissions causing global warming, based on what we know, are actually a negative number. But it&#039;s scary...even scarier because they talk only about worst-case consequences that are guesswork...so people blindly accept, without examining the science for themselves.

Our society is hagridden by fear of consequences without the actual risk being weighed.

Or, for that matter, the cost. All of society may suffer a thousand-dollar per person burden in order to reduce the danger to 0.001% of the society. Again, only the scariness of the consequences are considered.

Our kids should be taught statistics, economics, and logic even in grade school...instead, even the three Rs have taken a back seat to good citizenship, meaningless &quot;self esteem&quot;, and other passivity training.

It&#039;s no wonder they&#039;re turning into such sheep.

&lt;em&gt;Hi Kaz--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Agreed.  It&#039;s too bad that critical thinking isn&#039;t taught as a subject instead of simply assuming that people know how to think critically.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What, going not by CDC/NIH projections and suppositions, but the most conservative and hard-science-based guess, is the relative risk of smoking to cause cancer, then?</p>
<p>Anyway, failure to include actual risk in a fearful calculation is one of the biggest problems our authoritarian society has.</p>
<p>The odds of an asteroid impact is almost zero. But all the NASA bureaucrats seeking bigger budgets focus upon is the consequences if one actually did occur.</p>
<p>Every activity or item that gets effectively banned by government regulations or lawsuits gains that status without any sane examination of the actual odds. Ten million people could do/use something, and ten die, and it might get banned, directly or through lawsuits making it too expensive to provide.</p>
<p>Likewise, the odds of Hussein having had WMD was almost nil, going by the intelligence available at the time, but the consequences were so scary that people accepted ridiculous lies, exaggerations, and suppositions.</p>
<p>The only models that claim humans are causing greenhouse-based global warming fail 100% of the time, when historic data is plugged into them. The only global increase in temperatures is of surface temperatures, which cannot be caused by the greenhouse effect, but must have some other source. So the odds of human greenhouse emissions causing global warming, based on what we know, are actually a negative number. But it&#8217;s scary&#8230;even scarier because they talk only about worst-case consequences that are guesswork&#8230;so people blindly accept, without examining the science for themselves.</p>
<p>Our society is hagridden by fear of consequences without the actual risk being weighed.</p>
<p>Or, for that matter, the cost. All of society may suffer a thousand-dollar per person burden in order to reduce the danger to 0.001% of the society. Again, only the scariness of the consequences are considered.</p>
<p>Our kids should be taught statistics, economics, and logic even in grade school&#8230;instead, even the three Rs have taken a back seat to good citizenship, meaningless &#8220;self esteem&#8221;, and other passivity training.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s no wonder they&#8217;re turning into such sheep.</p>
<p><em>Hi Kaz&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>Agreed.  It&#8217;s too bad that critical thinking isn&#8217;t taught as a subject instead of simply assuming that people know how to think critically.</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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		<title>By: Bob Fritchey</title>
		<link>http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/statistics/relative-risk/comment-page-1/#comment-22155</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Fritchey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 16:32:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=639#comment-22155</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t this the same numbers game that people were using to convince the public that &#039;Second Hand Smoke&#039; is worse for you than if you smoked cigarettes yourself?

I think most people STILL believe it&#039;s true. When you&#039;ve got a catchy phrase with an emotional hook and something that SOUNDS true, it&#039;s pretty much impossible to stop the mass public from believing it...

&lt;em&gt;These are the same numbers.  It goes to show how easy statistical humbug can override plain ol&#039; common sense.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Cheers--&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;MRE &lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t this the same numbers game that people were using to convince the public that &#8216;Second Hand Smoke&#8217; is worse for you than if you smoked cigarettes yourself?</p>
<p>I think most people STILL believe it&#8217;s true. When you&#8217;ve got a catchy phrase with an emotional hook and something that SOUNDS true, it&#8217;s pretty much impossible to stop the mass public from believing it&#8230;</p>
<p><em>These are the same numbers.  It goes to show how easy statistical humbug can override plain ol&#8217; common sense.</em></p>
<p><em>Cheers&#8211;</em></p>
<p><em>MRE </em></p>
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