Comments on: Nutrition and health in agriculturalists and hunter-gatherers http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/ A critical look at nutritional science and anything else that strikes my fancy. Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:01:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: HeatherT http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-242858 HeatherT Fri, 12 Feb 2010 00:58:08 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-242858 One thing I note on this is that the "meat eaters" in this article were in fact eating a lot of aquatic food. "Hunter gatherers" did eat meat, but a large part of their diet was often shellfish or snails, insects, small fish, birds, rodents. They also ate a wide variety of plant foods, including some with a starches and carbs (esp. in the tropics, where yes, even wild fruit IS sweet!), and nuts. The modern interpretation of this diet is based on large land animals and deep-sea fish. Which still is likely better than the wheat/corn diet typical of America, but it's not a typical ancestral diet, and might have it's own set of problems. Large deep-sea fish, for instance, concentrate heavy metals and toxins from the fish they eat (which is one reason we don't, generally, eat predators). Beef might promote high iron levels in the blood, which are also problematic, plus most beef today is grown under highly non-cowlike conditions. One thing I note on this is that the “meat eaters” in this article were in fact eating a lot of aquatic food. “Hunter gatherers” did eat meat, but a large part of their diet was often shellfish or snails, insects, small fish, birds, rodents. They also ate a wide variety of plant foods, including some with a starches and carbs (esp. in the tropics, where yes, even wild fruit IS sweet!), and nuts.

The modern interpretation of this diet is based on large land animals and deep-sea fish. Which still is likely better than the wheat/corn diet typical of America, but it’s not a typical ancestral diet, and might have it’s own set of problems. Large deep-sea fish, for instance, concentrate heavy metals and toxins from the fish they eat (which is one reason we don’t, generally, eat predators). Beef might promote high iron levels in the blood, which are also problematic, plus most beef today is grown under highly non-cowlike conditions.

]]> By: aiia'ufi http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-241864 aiia'ufi Tue, 01 Dec 2009 18:35:44 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-241864 this is so cool this is so cool

]]> By: Bruce Robbins http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-223744 Bruce Robbins Mon, 03 Aug 2009 07:07:19 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-223744 Uhh...without agriculture (food surplus, leading to specialization, trade, etc., etc.), no civilization. Our closest relatives are vegans (chimps) not carnivores (tigers). Meat eating might have developed because Neandertals needed many more calories than we do today (it has been estimated close to 5,000 a day). Impossible to get that from veggies even with fruit added. Meat and fat might do the trick. One person said that some hunter gatherers might have been reluctant to settle down and farm because farming is more difficult than chasing game. I guess you guys don't buy all the research that links fat and cholesterol to placque and heart disease. "People will believe what they want to believe."...Julius Caesar. There is so much B.S. on the internet. <em>Research linking fat and cholesterol to plaque and heart disease is much different that research demonstrating causality. Since you're obviously so steeped in the medical and scientific literature, I would be most pleased if you would provide me with the citations of said literature that do show causality. If you could do that for me, I would gladly change my thinking. Problem is, you can't. Maybe because you've bought into all the B.S. that's on the internet. Also, you might want to review the primatology literature while you're at it. Chimps are far from vegans.</em> Uhh…without agriculture (food surplus, leading to specialization, trade, etc., etc.), no civilization. Our closest relatives are vegans (chimps) not carnivores (tigers). Meat eating might have developed because Neandertals needed many more calories than we do today (it has been estimated close to 5,000 a day). Impossible to get that from veggies even with fruit added. Meat and fat might do the trick. One person said that some hunter gatherers might have been reluctant to settle down and farm because farming is more difficult than chasing game. I guess you guys don’t buy all the research that links fat and cholesterol to placque and heart disease. “People will believe what they want to believe.”…Julius Caesar. There is so much B.S. on the internet.

Research linking fat and cholesterol to plaque and heart disease is much different that research demonstrating causality. Since you’re obviously so steeped in the medical and scientific literature, I would be most pleased if you would provide me with the citations of said literature that do show causality. If you could do that for me, I would gladly change my thinking. Problem is, you can’t. Maybe because you’ve bought into all the B.S. that’s on the internet.

Also, you might want to review the primatology literature while you’re at it. Chimps are far from vegans.

]]> By: Jeromie http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-222045 Jeromie Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:37:31 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-222045 You should check this site out http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts113.html and look under the headline of "what is n-hexane?" Afterward, scroll up and look at the highlights and check out what it can do to a person. I am posting this because I am seeing a lot of "Save the earth by not eating meat" crap when it takes a nasty chemical to pull oils out of soybeans and soybeans are in nearly every processed food source! Mother nature wasn't stupid when she put millions of creatures here to thrive and fight for existence. I am sure there were thousands more animals a thousand years ago who were putting methane into the air, but I can bet there was nobody a thousand years ago using chemicals to make life more "convenient". That's my rant for now, I hope you enjoy. You should check this site out http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts113.html and look under the headline of “what is n-hexane?” Afterward, scroll up and look at the highlights and check out what it can do to a person. I am posting this because I am seeing a lot of “Save the earth by not eating meat” crap when it takes a nasty chemical to pull oils out of soybeans and soybeans are in nearly every processed food source! Mother nature wasn’t stupid when she put millions of creatures here to thrive and fight for existence. I am sure there were thousands more animals a thousand years ago who were putting methane into the air, but I can bet there was nobody a thousand years ago using chemicals to make life more “convenient”. That’s my rant for now, I hope you enjoy.

]]> By: Dan http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-218245 Dan Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:56:57 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-218245 Maybe the climate/flora/fauna were different between the two groups - they are seperated by about 4,500 years which is quite long time. Maybe the climate/flora/fauna were different between the two groups – they are seperated by about 4,500 years which is quite long time.

]]> By: Joanne of Open Mind Required http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-217628 Joanne of Open Mind Required Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:22:51 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-217628 Great article. I'll Digg it. The comments are all absolutely fascinating. I'm new to paleo, having come from a natural hygienist view that raw plant matter is the ultimate diet. Boy, have I got a lot to learn! I got my hands on a copy of Protein Power yesterday and look forward to reading it. Hard to do, though, when I've just spent three hours on your blog. :) <em>Thanks for the Digg. I'm glad you've enjoyed the blog, and I hope you enjoy the book.</em> Great article. I’ll Digg it. The comments are all absolutely fascinating. I’m new to paleo, having come from a natural hygienist view that raw plant matter is the ultimate diet. Boy, have I got a lot to learn! I got my hands on a copy of Protein Power yesterday and look forward to reading it. Hard to do, though, when I’ve just spent three hours on your blog. :)

Thanks for the Digg. I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the blog, and I hope you enjoy the book.

]]> By: Ram http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-214187 Ram Sat, 09 May 2009 13:46:51 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-214187 Dear Dr. Eades, Sorry that I have to take this route to trouble you. It appears that my email queries are not reaching you. Using PPLP, my HB A1C has come down from 8.5 to 6.0 in 11 months (innumerable high carb vacations notwithstanding). My longest low carb diet span (<40 gm/day) is around 4 weeks before falling off the wagon. The trouble here in Bangalore, India is to stick to low carb while going out since some readymade low carb stuff is impossible to get. Now I am going to NJ, USA for 8 weeks and plan to really do <40 gm/day of carbs for all the 8 weeks of my stay there. My doctor has promised to take me off Metformin (1000 mg/day) if I can show him an A1C of < 5.5 which he says is impossible for a diabetic!. Could you kindly recommend some easily available low carb shakes and protein bars so that this USA trip will really put me back on track? Thanks Ram Dear Dr. Eades,

Sorry that I have to take this route to trouble you. It appears that my email queries are not reaching you.

Using PPLP, my HB A1C has come down from 8.5 to 6.0 in 11 months (innumerable high carb vacations notwithstanding). My longest low carb diet span (<40 gm/day) is around 4 weeks before falling off the wagon. The trouble here in Bangalore, India is to stick to low carb while going out since some readymade low carb stuff is impossible to get. Now I am going to NJ, USA for 8 weeks and plan to really do <40 gm/day of carbs for all the 8 weeks of my stay there. My doctor has promised to take me off Metformin (1000 mg/day) if I can show him an A1C of < 5.5 which he says is impossible for a diabetic!. Could you kindly recommend some easily available low carb shakes and protein bars so that this USA trip will really put me back on track?

Thanks

Ram

]]> By: Jim Valance http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-213256 Jim Valance Sat, 02 May 2009 23:32:43 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-213256 Very interesting post and very nicely done. Well written Mike. Another arrow in all of our quivers for low-carb. I was aware of the prevalence of caries in the agriculturalists' diet, but not the enamel hypoplasia or the porotic hyperostosis. Is it related to osteo porosis? Again, thank you, I've gotten new knowledge from your post. BTW, you seem to be quite prolific these days. It's great but I'm having trouble keeping up due to some personal issues. I'll keep trying though. Keep up the good work. Jim <em>Porotic hyperostosis is a skeletal sign of iron deficiency, which is different than osteoporosis.</em> Very interesting post and very nicely done. Well written Mike. Another arrow in all of our quivers for low-carb.

I was aware of the prevalence of caries in the agriculturalists’ diet, but not the enamel hypoplasia or the porotic hyperostosis. Is it related to osteo porosis? Again, thank you, I’ve gotten new knowledge from your post.

BTW, you seem to be quite prolific these days. It’s great but I’m having trouble keeping up due to some personal issues. I’ll keep trying though. Keep up the good work.

Jim

Porotic hyperostosis is a skeletal sign of iron deficiency, which is different than osteoporosis.

]]> By: Andrea http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-213211 Andrea Sat, 02 May 2009 15:57:02 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-213211 Excellent article! Definitely addresses the "nasty, brutish and short" view of pre-agricultural life. I have a question about those beans. Is it true that sprouting destroys the lectins? Does it make a difference whether one eats the whole sprout including the seed, or only the top part? What about pea vines? (I never knew they were edible - my daughter turned me on to those!) How does the lectin level in green beans and snow peas compare to that in the mature legumes? And what about clover sprouts? I appreciate any information you can give me. Excellent article! Definitely addresses the “nasty, brutish and short” view of pre-agricultural life.

I have a question about those beans. Is it true that sprouting destroys the lectins? Does it make a difference whether one eats the whole sprout including the seed, or only the top part? What about pea vines? (I never knew they were edible – my daughter turned me on to those!) How does the lectin level in green beans and snow peas compare to that in the mature legumes? And what about clover sprouts?

I appreciate any information you can give me.

]]> By: Matt http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#comment-212560 Matt Wed, 29 Apr 2009 13:52:09 +0000 http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/?p=2877#comment-212560 This is a comparison of straight hunter gatherer versus straight agriculture. They fail to explain what type of agriculture is practiced in this example. Were there multiple crops that allowed for all essential amino acids? It is not surprising that only eating something closer to us in composition (meat) rather than only a plant. It goes without saying that with what we know now, if you could choose to eat only beef or only corn, beef is clearly the healthier choice. What do you think the effect adding of domestication of protein sources to agriculture have? Furthermore, how does a 1980 paper claim to control for physical activity levels? I think this is a great example showing the necessity of meat, but surely skepticism is needed when trying to apply the diet of the Hardin society to ours society. This is a comparison of straight hunter gatherer versus straight agriculture. They fail to explain what type of agriculture is practiced in this example. Were there multiple crops that allowed for all essential amino acids? It is not surprising that only eating something closer to us in composition (meat) rather than only a plant. It goes without saying that with what we know now, if you could choose to eat only beef or only corn, beef is clearly the healthier choice.

What do you think the effect adding of domestication of protein sources to agriculture have? Furthermore, how does a 1980 paper claim to control for physical activity levels? I think this is a great example showing the necessity of meat, but surely skepticism is needed when trying to apply the diet of the Hardin society to ours society.

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